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A Ten Minute Read That May Enlighten You; Only 3 members will read this,a shame.
Topic Started: Feb 17 2005, 02:55 PM (351 Views)
Trailblazer
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Thank you, Sylvia. :) Countless hippies in the '60's and '70's were Vietnam vets and students, teachers. Stephen Gaskin is a good example of a "society drop out" from the streets of San Francisco. He started a successful commune in Tennessee called "The Farm." They ship thousands of pounds of their soy beans and produce and food oversees to 3rd world countries, and work with Greenpeace. For almost 40 years now they have been living an ecologically-friendly lifestyle and not contributing to the planets woes. Those are pretty big contributions, in my book, considering the state of our planet.
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cruiser
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syl 2000,

Sounds like the Bush administration.

Commitment to the nation, to the people within that nation, and to its leaders. Often results in people following a leader with whom they may not agree on important issues for the sake of unity. Produces a unified voice, often at the cost of honest debate. Tends to view disagreement with the majority as “bad,” and maybe even as treason."
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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cruiser
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syl 2000

Not my answer but from someone far more adept at addressing his thoughts then myself.



Nationalism and patriotism are as corrosive to human interaction as anything ever created by the human animal. Love of country, blind patriotism, aggressive nationalism, ignorant xenophobia, dumbed down unenlightenment, manipulated fear and programmed insecurity fuse to form a most malignant cocktail of human wickedness, resulting in the historical failure to contain the human animal. It is during these times of the human animal unleashed, such as is found today in America, when humanity as a whole suffers the consequences of those creations of man called borders and nations. It is during these times when the population of a super tribe is inundated most with feelings of superiority over all other peoples surrounding them. Those false enemies, which government and Establishment propaganda have over the years created, suddenly become imminent threats that must be destroyed. It is in times of nationalistic fervor that logic ceases to exist, violent thought grows, racism prospers and aggressiveness expands. All such lunacy for love of country, for love of flag and for love of government.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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cruiser
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Chris, I must admit you are much better read than myself but I do speak from my heart.

Your anwer to "worker bee"


The system knows that in order to achieve its army of WORKER BEES,and soldier ants it must use the recipe used to conquer souls, perfected for nearly 2,000 years, of breaking the human mind early, implanting ideas and beliefs that in adulthood will be nearly impossible to erode. Hereditary conditioning of minds, personalities and behaviors works best in youth, when the mind is still fragile and innocent, when the brain is growing and susceptible to believe almost anything if it is manipulated long enough, pervasively enough. Thus, the process by which youngsters are indoctrinated and made loyal to the state commences in schools as children embark on a journey of education that will span at least a decade and a half through a purposefully corrosive, under funded and manipulative state education system whose curriculum caters to the interests of the nation and the elite that run it.
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
And compare that to Patriotism,

"Commitment to the core principles and values of the nation, the values on which the nation was established. Results in knowing and holding to the Constitution and its principles and limits.

Constrained patriotism = Pride in community
Respect for checks and balances,
protection for minorities
freedom on the press--the 4th estate --seeks to report truth

Unconstrained patriotism = Rule by majority and those who shout the loudest and have the greatest visibility
manipulates the checks & balances,
ignorant xenophobia, encourages the dumbing down unenlightenment, and allows manipulated fear to take hold.
Propaganda finesses honesty and destroys what is written

I probably didn't say it very well, but nationalism is to be feared, it is negative--it is exclusionary. Patriotism is to uphold and observe the philosophy of no harm to your fellow citizens. It is positive and advances freedom for all--it is embracive.

Sylvia

The bee anaology has been used for centuries. The satirical rendering of it by Mandeville is a paradoxial thesis, 'private vices, public benefits' I doubt that any feminist agrees with vol2.p.124 "But why should pride be more encouraged in Women than in Men?" For the same reason that it is encouraged in soldiers ... To keep both to their respective duties." But this was written quite a long time ago and reflected the roles of that time.
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cruiser
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Chris, from the bees


The Soldiers, that were forced to fight,
If they survived, got Honour by't;
Tho' some, that shunn'd the bloody Fray,
Had Limbs shot off, that ran away:
Some valiant Gen'rals fought the Foe; [105]
Others took Bribes to let them go:
Some ventur'd always, where 'twas warm;
Lost now a Leg, and then an Arm;
Till quite disabled, and put by,
They lived on half their Salary; [110]
Whilst others never came in Play,
And staid at Home for Double Pay.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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cruiser
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syl 2000


Sounds like the current administration.

From your post about patriotism.

(Unconstrained patriotism = Rule by majority and those who shout the loudest and have the greatest visibility
manipulates the checks & balances,
ignorant xenophobia, encourages the dumbing down unenlightenment, and allows manipulated fear to take hold.
Propaganda finesses honesty and destroys what is written)
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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Justine
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Wow, that explains everything, now I am enlightened! ( guess I was in the dark before, but whoever wrote that piece sure has all the answers, and I should buy into it since it IS written down, so it must be true, right, LOL)

What baloney. And , quoting the John Lennon song sure legitmized it for me,( NOT)

I read it, and guess what, I don't buy into it. I guess I too am a " worker bee" ! But,
Better to be a worker bee then a dumb bunny.

PS.

Having long hair and smoking pot in the sixties did not neccisarily make one a hippie, ask a biker about that!
The " true" hippies did not fight in the Viet Nam war, they dodged the draft, came up here to our little Islands, and are still there ( Ever seen a 60 yr old who wears his hair in a pony tail and sandels with woolen homemade socks) , making candles and goat milk soap for the tourists! LOL

I shouldn't be so sarcastic, so I do apoligize, but really, just another persons view that purports to have " insights" that many of us " drones" can't grasp.
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Banandangees
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How can we reach a Utopia as a community, nation, world if we can't even reach it within ourselves? We can (spiritually/socially) strive for a "perfectional peaceness" individually, but few will approach it; few will become a Mother Theresa. We can strive for a world utopia; but as long as there are thinking minds, there will always be an Empire somewhere, a sudan, "infidels," gettos, criminals....but few Mother Theresas. We can sing beautiful songs, talk a physical love, smoke pot ... and when we grow up, we can become doctors, CEOs, philanthropists, pastors (as we have); but the world still remains the same.

We can and should strive as a community, a nation and a world, but the best that we can really hope for (IMO) is that each person, through true gallant effort, may reach the highest, purest level of love and compassion for each other and for the world, that we might feel some worthiness of a greater love/compassion back toward ourselves, when our end comes. And I've got to admit, I have my work cut out for myself.
Banan
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cruiser
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Good one! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Justine, are " true" hippies like "true" Christians, or the opposite. Lots of "untrue" hippies fought and dies in that war. :poke: :P

Otherwise I basically agree with you. To imagine here's one man who, ignoring man's limitations, and past, has all the answers. So unconstrained.


On edit, Fred (banan), at least you recognize man's limitations and recognize the constraints.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
I can't offhand think of an act of kindness that I regret, but I have had to make apologies for hasty judgements, sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, being too critical of others and speaking in anger.

There isn't much I can do about changing the world, just try to change myself and do the best I can in my daily life.

Sylvia

Banana ... I liked your last sentiment: "I have my work cut out for myself." :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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tomdrobin
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brewster
Feb 17 2005, 09:48 PM
I don't often agree with Alan, but he's pretty close to the truth this time...

It's another of those ageold myths that somehow our ancestors lived "as one with nature", "in peace and harmony".

The "Noble Savage" never existed - it was always "Us" against "Them" - primitive man fought, killed whatever he could, stole whatever he couldn't. The only reason he didn't harm nature as much as we do was that he didn't have our technology.

If I sound pessimistic, please believe me, I'm not. I honestly believe that we are moving forward in our understanding of both the world and our fellow man, gradually treating each other better and better. :hug:

But it's a bumpy road, and we have so far to go.... :(

Brewster & Brad
You got a handle on it IMO. The partriotism, and nationalism so disdained in the article are really extensions of the primal conflicts that were designed to ensure survival of the fittest, and in so doing ensuring survival of the species.

Idealism has it's place, but reality is where it's at. We get too deep in idealistic policies and it will be our undoing. Most religions describe a hereafter that has these idealistic attributes. But, we are in the here and now.
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abradf2519
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"The Noble Savage" concept is BS. There is or was no such thing. The "Indians" here in the US fought constantly. Tribal warfare is a contiuous thing. The introduction of nations and nationalities actually brought more peace to the world, because it elimiated the constant tribal warfare. Nationalism does sometimes causes wars, but at least they are not happening constantly. To put it in perspective, in a tribal culture, war happens maybe several times a year, but in a nationalistic culture war only happens every 10 years or so.

Actually, the US is an example of how to have even less wars. Different states have different laws and if people don't like them, they can easily move to state with better laws. For example, if I ever got tired of the high taxes here in New York, I can move to Texas where they are a lot lower. As a result, in our entire history, there has only been 1 civil war. If this model was used for the world, I think that we would have even less wars. I think that the UN was supposed to be based on this model, but the problem is that a lot of world leaders still don't embrace the concept of democracy.

This is why I make such a big deal when the principals of democracy are violated by judges.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
We have a republican not democratic form of government.

US Wars:

Colonial Wars -A series of wars involving the colonizing European powers of England, France, Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden in North America and the Caribbean.

King William's War, (1689-1697)-Known in Europe as the War of the League of Augsburg AND as the War of the Grand Alliance and in North America as King William's War.

Queen Anne's War, (1702-1712)-Known in Europe as the War of the Spanish Succession, in North America as Queen Anne's War and in India as the First Carnatic War. This conflict also included the Second Abnaki War. The Abnaki Indian tribe allied itself with the French against the English colonists in North America.

The War of Jenkins' Ear, (1739-1743)-Fought between Britain and Spain.

King George's War, (1744-1748)-Known in Europe as the War of the Austrian Succession and in North America as King George's War.

French and Indian War, (1755-1763)-Known in Europe as the Seven Years' War and in North America as the French and Indian War. France forever lost possession of Quebec/Canada. In many ways, England's victory set the stage for the American Revolution.

Colonial Indian Wars (1609-1775)-A series of wars involving the colonizing European powers of England, France, Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden and their colonists against the native tribes of North America.

American Revolution (1775-1783)- Also involved France, Spain and the Netherlands against Britain. The first Anglo-American War.

Indian Wars (1775-1890)-A series of wars involving the United States government and her migrating settlers with the native tribes of what became the continental United States.

Shay's Rebellion (1786-1787)

The Whiskey Rebellion (1794)

Quasi-War with France (1798-1800)

Fries's Rebellion "The Hot Water War" (1799)

U.S. Slave Rebellions (1800-1865)

Barbary Wars

Tripolitanian War (1800-1805)

Algerine War (1815)

War of 1812 (1812-1814)-The second Anglo-American War.

Invasion of Spanish Florida (1819)-Andrew Jackson seized Florida from Spain.

U.S.-Mexican War (1846-1847)-The United States invaded Mexico and forced the Mexicans to cede the northern half of the country and also to give up any claim to Texas.

Kansas Civil War "Bleeding Kansas" (1855-1860)-Guerilla warfare between pro and anti slavery forces.

Brown's Raid on Harpers Ferry (1859)-Anti-slavery militant John Brown's attempt to jump start a slave rebellion.

Civil War (1861-1865)

U.S. Intervention in Hawaiian Revolution (1893)

Spanish-American War (1898)

U.S. Intervention in Samoan Civil War (1898-1899) with U.S. and British Naval Bombardment of Samoa --A resumption of past civil wars in which Samoan chief Mataafa seized power following the death of his rival, King Malietoa Laupepa, who had defeated him in the last Samoan Civil War (1893-1894). Fighting ensued, which was complicated by the long-standing rivalry between the U.S., Britain and Germany for de facto control over the Samoan Islands. On March 15, 1899, warships of the American and British Navies bombarded the Samoan city of Apia to intimidate the reigning Samoan king, who was allied with the Germans. An Anglo-American landing force took control of Apia, but were not able to pacify the interior. All sides agreed to cease fighting on May 13, 1899. Later that year, the three Western nations signed a treaty dividing Samoa between them. This whole conflict was part of a wider Samoan civil war.

Philippine-American War (1899-1902)

Boxer Rebellion (1900)-Also involved Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, Italy, Austria-Hungary against "Boxer" rebels in China as well as the Chinese government.

The Moro Wars (1901-1913)-Guerilla warfare against U.S. forces by the Moro Muslims of the southern Philippines. Can be seen as a continuation of the Philippine-American War.

U.S. Intervention in Panamanian Revolution (1903)-The U.S. landed troops in Panama to prevent Columbia from crushing the separatist Panamanian government.

The Banana Wars (1909-1933)-A series of U.S. interventions in various Central American and Caribbean countries.

U.S. Occupation of Vera Cruz (1914)-The U.S. landed troops in Vera Cruz, Mexico.

Pershing's Raid into Mexico (1916-1917)-After Mexican rebel Pancho Villa attacked a U.S. town, General Pershing pursued him across the border.

World War I (1917-1918)

Allied Intervention in Russian Civil War (1919-1921)-Also involved Britain, France, Japan, Italy, Poland and the Czech Legion against the new Bolshevik (Soviet Communist) government in Russia.

World War II (1941-1945)

The Cold War (1945-1991)

Korean War (1950-1953)-Also involved Britain, France, Turkey, and others against North Korea and China.

Intervention in Lebanon (1958)

Second Indochina War (1956-1975)

Vietnam War (1964-1973)--The "advisory" phase of U.S. involvement goes from 1956 to 1964, and then resumes from 1973 to 1975. The years 1964 to 1973 refer to the period of "official" combat deployment of U.S. forces in the war.

Cambodian Civil War (1970-1975)

Laotian Civil War (1960?-1975)

Dominican Intervention (1965-1966?)

Iranian Hostage Crisis (1979-1980)

Lebanese Intervention (1982-1984)

Grenada Invasion (1983)

First Persian Gulf War (1980-1988)-The U.S. gave logistical and intelligence information to Iraq in its war against Iran.

"Tanker War" (1987-1988)-The U.S. provided naval protection for Kuwaiti oil tankers in the Persian Gulf. This led to multiple clashes with the Iranian military.

Panama Invasion (1989)

Second Persian Gulf War (1991)

No-Fly Zone War (1991-2003)

Somalia Intervention (1992-1993)

Occupation of Haiti (1994-Present)

Bosnian War (1995)-The U.S. and NATO engaged in air strikes to force the Bosnian Serb forces to negotiate a peace agreement. Also known as Operation Deliberate Force. U.S. airpower contributed 65.9% of the NATO air sorties.

bin Laden's War (1998-Present) -Terrorist conflict between the United States and irregular forces led by Osama bin Laden. The violence has also involved Kenya, Tanzania, Sudan and Afghanistan.

Kosovo War (1999) --Links Page

The War in Afghanistan (2001-Present)

The Third Persian Gulf War : "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (2003)--The second major war between the United States-led coalition and the Middle Eastern nation of Iraq. Military members of the coalition also include the United Kingdom and Australia.

Intervention in Haiti (2004)--Intervention to prevent civil war/anarchy in Haiti following the Gonsalves Rebellion against the Haitian government.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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