| Welcome to Campfire Soapbox. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Intelligent Design | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 14 2005, 05:46 AM (363 Views) | |
| bikemanb | Feb 14 2005, 08:39 PM Post #16 |
|
Liberal Conservative
|
Dan, Actually there is nothing incongruent with ID and/or evolution and a God, unless you insist that the universe as we know it was created in seven 24 hour days. Evolution may be part of ID. Only human hubris makes us try to position this insignificant planet in a rather common galaxy as the be all and end all of creation and attempting to define God or the Creator and creation to fit our human preconceptions. It is extremely difficult for finite beings to conceive of an all powerful Being or Force that always is, always was and always will be; to such an entity time would have no meaning. |
|
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 14 2005, 09:16 PM Post #17 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
From the Behe piece: "The 18th-century clergyman William Paley likened living things to a watch..." From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Natural Theology
(Aside, on edit, we have heard it said a number of times here that the distinction between Deists and Christians is Deists believe God created the universe but has since been disinterested. Not exactly true. As this description explains, the difference is between natural and revealed religion.) |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| Banandangees | Feb 14 2005, 09:59 PM Post #18 |
|
Member
|
Supposedly, Moses was responsible for the writing of the Book of Genesis. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But, Genesis was written by someone similar to Moses; a follower possibly, who wrote of the stories handed down by Moses. They wrote of "creationism." How was Moses (or the writer of Genesis) going to explain evolution to the people of that time if he had any idea about it? What did Moses know of evolution and could he conceptualize the time or timelessness it takes for evolution to occur as Darwin suggested it occurred anymore than Darwin himself, or the present day man who thinks he can. Creation in seven days or evolution over time plus more time makes no difference to my way of thinking. Either way, it came by ID, a process by which, as bikeman wrote: that ".. is extremely difficult for finite beings to conceive of an all powerful Being or Force that always is, always was and always will be; to such an entity time would have no meaning." Neither religious experts or expert philosophers will have a provable, definite answer. |
| Banan | |
![]() |
|
| abradf2519 | Feb 14 2005, 10:16 PM Post #19 |
|
Member
|
I agree with the article except for: "Intelligent design proponents....do not doubt that evolution occurred." I have my doubts about evolution and don't think it has to be a necessary component of ID. |
|
Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 04:48 AM Post #20 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
A simple Venn diagram resolves that, as there are variations on ID.![]() click to enlarge |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 05:31 AM Post #21 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (1986) "Paley's argument is made with passionate sincerity and is informed by the best biological scholarship of the day, but it is wrong, gloriously and utterly wrong. The analogy between telescope and eye, between watch and living organism, is false. All appearances to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind force of physics, albeit deplored in a special way. A true watchmaker has foresight: he designs his cogs and springs, and plans their interconnections, with a future porpose in his mind's eye. Natural selection, the blind unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind's eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker." |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| cruiser | Feb 15 2005, 06:32 AM Post #22 |
![]()
Member
|
Chris, you sound like a candidate for their website Welcome to the home page of The Brights, an international Internet constituency of individuals A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview A bright's worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements The ethics and actions of a bright are based on a naturalistic worldview Link to the Brights' Principles A Chronology of the Brights' Movement is Available in the Archived Bulletins the reason & purpose Currently the naturalistic worldview is insufficiently expressed within most cultures. The purpose of this movement is to form an Internet constituency of individuals, the Brights, having social and political recognition and power. There is a great diversity of persons who have a naturalistic worldview. Under a broad umbrella, the Brights can gain social and political influence in a society otherwise permeated with supernaturalism. Promote the civic understanding and acknowledgment of the naturalistic worldview, which is free of supernatural and mystical elements. Gain public recognition that: persons who hold such a worldview can bring principled actions to bear on matters of civic importance. Educate society toward accepting the full and equitable civic participation of all such individuals. Are You a Bright? (Check out the noun, bright) Think about your own worldview to decide if it is indeed free of supernatural or mystical deities, forces, and entities. Check the wording in the definition and description (above). If you would like more information on the important terms used in the definition, you can go to the FAQs. If you decide that you fit the definition, then you can simply say so and join with us in this extraordinary effort to change the thinking of society--the Brights Movement. If successful, these early efforts of ours could have far-reaching effects. We are a constituency of Brights (persons who fit the definition and sign in on this Web site) for social and political action. This constituency of Brights includes many who are members of existing atheist, agnostic, freethought, humanist, rationalist, secularist, skeptic organizations, and many more who are nonreligious and are not associated with any formal group. Can the Brights' Network impact society's outlook on the naturalistic worldview? That remains to be seen, but if you are intrigued by the idea, we invite you to explore this Web site and learn more about The Brights Movement. Selected Essays on the Brights Richard Dawkins, "The Future Looks Bright" in The Guardian Daniel Dennett, "The Bright Stuff" in New York Times Dennett vs. Good, Two "Brights" Side by Side: an open letter by Good to Dennett, and Dennett's rejoinder Richard Dawkins, "Let There Be Brights" in Wired Magazine Marilyn LaCourt, A Look On the Bright Side Of Social and Religious Issues: as featured in CNI's "At Ease" Sharon Tubbs, "A Brights Idea" in St. Petersburg (FL) Times Jennifer Garza, "In a New Light" in Sacramento (CA) Bee Michael Shermer, "The Big ‘Bright’ Brouhaha: An Empirical Study on an Emerging Skeptical Movement” on Skeptic.com Ruth Wajnryb, "The future is oh-so non-adjectivally bright" in The Sydney Morning Herald Erik Strand, "Worldview: Nonbelievers Unite" in Psychology Today Mynga Futrell and Paul Geisert, Four Essays on the Brights (Co-Directors' Commentary) Sign up as a Bright Confidentiality When you self-identify as a Bright by signing up on this Web site, your name, e-mail, or address will never be provided to anyone or to any other organization. With the information you provide, we will count you a Bright in your locale, but we will never release your information without your express permission. Support We welcome Brights in their varied roles and capacities to participate in and to share their talents with this movement. If you are so enthusiastic about the overall goals and strategies that you wish to volunteer as a "helper," please e-mail to the-brights@the-brights.net and say so. You will be contacted at a later point regarding how you might wish to participate more extensively. Financial support is most welcome, too. The activities page details varied ways you can participate. Thanks! (and we mean it) Co-Directors: Paul Geisert and Mynga Futrell |
|
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 11:52 AM Post #23 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Cruiser, I think I just like to think I think.
|
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| passinthru | Feb 15 2005, 12:00 PM Post #24 |
![]()
John - Gainesville, FL
|
With all the planets in the universe, isn't it self-centered to assume a day to God is the same as a day on one of the planets He created? After all, our day is determined by the simple rotation of the earth one time around its axis. Can we really limit God to that day? edited for grammar |
| Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money... | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 12:04 PM Post #25 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Or just this planet? Self-centered, and anthropomorphic. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| CalRed | Feb 15 2005, 06:10 PM Post #26 |
|
Member
|
Not quite!!! |
|
Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 06:56 PM Post #27 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Take that up with the IDers, Cal, I'm just here to post what I find in order to understand what ID is about. Part of doing so is taking into account its origins and its detractors in order to get a well-rounder view rather than a one-sided one. Be that as it may I would like to continue with an excerpt from the link Alan provided last thread where we started discussing ID. Let me be clear and fair to Alan, I asked and he found, but I do not wish to imply it is his position. IS INTELLIGENT DESIGN A RELIGION?
|
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| cruiser | Feb 15 2005, 07:17 PM Post #28 |
![]()
Member
|
Just another way for the religious right to get a backdoor entrance to our schools and educational systems. |
|
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
![]() |
|
| bikemanb | Feb 15 2005, 07:41 PM Post #29 |
|
Liberal Conservative
|
Personally I think it was ID and the Vorlons did it. If you aren't a SciFi aficionado you won't know what I am talking about. |
|
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Feb 15 2005, 08:06 PM Post #30 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
cruiser " Just another way for the religious right to get a backdoor entrance to our schools and educational systems." And ID does not in any way support that. Bill "Personally I think it was ID and the Vorlons did it." Then read on. ID allows for "directed panspermia"
It is a narrower view, this is the broader: Panspermia. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Soapbox · Next Topic » |









8:22 AM Jul 11