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Walmart; Closing Union Store in Canada?
Topic Started: Feb 14 2005, 12:02 AM (835 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Dan "This rant really displays the true socialist."

Yours? Indeed it does.

You say "I cited a source that poked some fun at what appears to be a seriously over-reaching government."

But what I hear are Canadian's voicing individual opinions and deciding what they want. And the government they elect enacting that. That's not socialism. That's liberal democracy, like we have. In fact it's fair to say is fairly conservative by any principled instead of prejudicial definition.

What I hear are Canadians voicing opinions they want to preserve their traditions and exercising that through their government. That's not socialism. That's liberal democracy, like we have. In fact it's fair to say is fairly conservative by any principled instead of prejudicial definition.

What I hear is Canadians voicing an opinion that envisions and seeks to avoid the longer term unintended consequences of over-corporatization (if you will) and over-unionization--of going too extremely far in either direction. That's not socialism. That's liberal democracy, like we have. In fact it's fair to say is fairly conservative by any principled instead of prejudicial definition.

Your posts trying to rationalize everything to fit your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here. No wonder the US is headed down that road. Frankly I'm surprised anyone bites on that tired old bait.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
Quote:
 
liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


Lessee, we're discussing a private company chosing to shut down a store rather than let a national union come in and force them to run the business the way the union wants and turn it into a money loser.

I am pointing out that the company has the right to do so, you have agreed with me on that. I am pointing out that Quebec has very high unemployment for "industrialized" Canada and suggesting that attitudes and governmental behavior causes employers not to create jobs there. When you see significant differences in job creation within a country, there is always a cause and if the areas are otherwise similar, the cause will generally be found in governmental actions or cultural attitudes of the work force.

In this case, it appears the work force took jobs at an employer knowing full well the terms of that employment and is now attempting to use force and coercion via a union to change the terms of that employment. According to our Canadian friends, it is OK for the government of Quebec and the union to use such tactics and not be "an abomination" but it is not OK for WalMart not to cave in.

Unions are by nature socialistic, authoritarian organizations and this one is proving that point graphically. It is trying to force the employer to operate on the standard, full work week, high pay and benefits model for low-skilled labor that would not command that compensation in a free market. They are being actively supported in this by the Quebec government as even a cursory reading of the story on this shows.

The margerine thing was a joke--the reaction to it shows it hits a nerve. Perhaps it is because the complainers know that Quebec's government has a reputation for this kind of thing. It's a French thing perhaps? :)

WalMart is giving people what they want. That is why they are successful. Some of the posters in this thread, particularly Sylley, brand this as evil and want to force a private company into their vision of "responsibiliity". That is socialist to the core. Corporations do not exist for social purposes. They exist to provide the goods and services the market says it wants and to make a profit doing so. That is called capitalism and it works a lot better than socialism.

Your statement above in response to my posting in this thread is nonsense. Stop being the board bully and get out of my face. Thank you.

Dan
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
I wholeheartedly agree the company also has its freedom to shut its doors just as Canadian's have the freedom to decide what they accept in their community and what they don't.

Whether those choices, or the choices we make in the US, are always the right choices has nothing to do with political principles. To think man can make those choices always rightly is to have an unconstrained vision as Thomas Sowell defines it. Recognizing man's limitations and working within them in a systemic way is to have a constrained vision. Yours is unconstrained.

Unions are by nature socialistic? Where do you come up with these decidely absurd and prejudicial judgments? Unions are simply people uniting to work together. Out nation is a union, does that make is socialist? Patently absurd.

Can unions be detrimental to free enterprise by demanding too much against company or corporate profits? Of course they can. Just as a companies decisions--in this case to close doors--can be detrimental to free enterprise. Neither action makes one socialist or liberal. It just makes the action mistaken.

Your bating with liberal this and liberal that, socialist this and socialist that is meaningless nonsense. Or can you come up with a principle definition first, and then apply it across the board?



"Stop being the board bully and get out of my face."

"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."
- Cicero

So who is trying to shout people down here, Dan? Stick to the topic.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
Quote:
 
Your posts trying to rationalize everything to fit your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


Quote:
 
Where do you come up with these decidely absurd and prejudicial judgments?


Quote:
 
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."
- Cicero


:)


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CalRed
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It seem Dan has presented a very good case. I don't understand the attack on him. I have not seen what has been described. What I see is fairly common. He disagrees with most of the posters so his is "ranting". Dan I am used to that so don't feel too alone.

If people think Wal-Mart is so bad then why do they buy their products? It's a simple solution. Don't buy their products and they will soon be out of business and close. That seems to be what people want. If Wal-Mart doesn't pay enough, go somewhere else and get a job. Don't blame Wal-Mart.

Everyone speaking against Wal-Mart seems to think they have to shop there. I have never known a business, Wal-Mart included, who could stay in business without making sales.

The truth is that people want their goods because they are priced low and buyers must be happy with the quality of the product or they wouldn't buy them.

Why do people keep saying they should raise prices in order to pay their employees more? I'm not aware of any store that doesn't pay minimum wage for untrained work and that is what they get until a person gets into management. If they want higher pay, then get an education and learn a skill. That's where the pay is. It has become common todeay for kids to drop out of school, go to work at McDonalds flipping hamburgers and start complaining about the low pay they get. When will they ever learn to be responsible for themselves?

Wal-Mart's philosophy has always been that they would buy American when they can get a competitive product made in America. The problem is that because of unions there is no company that can compete fairly in making those products. Why is Wal-Mart so different than Ford, or General Motors or the other companies that have suffered at the hands of unions. The American auto industry has a hard time competing with the imports. In fact the Japanese companies have come here now and shown that they can still make cars and sell them quite well with their better policies and still lower prices. Look what unions did to the railroads. They don't even exist anymore. Look at the television industry. They aren't made in America anymore. Stop and reason why. Unions. That's why. They were driven out of the country by their ridiculous demands for higher pay and benefits.

Dan is right. The retail market is driven by consumers. Without people buying the product the company will soon go out of business.

To demand that the company provide products at higher prices so that they can pay higher wages will spell the downfall to any company. Socialism never works. A free market will work every time.
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
When was the last time you saw a product that was made in the United States in a Walmart store?

They get most of their goods from China and third world countries.

Sylvia
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
Calred, I don't take any of this seriously. This board has a decidedly leftward tilt so it is fun to come over here and stir the pot. Some of them like to stir the pot over at the Breach (decidedly rightward tilt) so I view all of this as good sport. :)

As for WalMart and Canada, my guess is that most of the country will continue to shop there because they like it. I would expect that WalMart as an "abomination" is very much a minority view even in Canada which certainly is to the left of the U.S. in its view of capitalism.

Dan
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
Quote:
 
They get most of their goods from China and third world countries.


LOL! Been into Target or KMart lately? WalMart is the single largest importer of Chinese and "third world" goods because they are the single largest retailer on planet earth.

Oh, and go to your nearest "upscale" department store and read the labels on the merchandise. They're all buying from the Chinese and the sweatshops.


:)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
DanHouck
Feb 16 2005, 07:16 AM
Quote:
 
Your posts trying to rationalize everything to fit your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


Quote:
 
Where do you come up with these decidely absurd and prejudicial judgments?


Quote:
 
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."
- Cicero


:)

I am arguing the content of your posts, Dan. I do not believe and am not saying you are necesarily those things. Just that your posted arguments are.

Attack the message, not the messenger.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
Quote:
 
Your posts trying to rationalize everything to fit your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


Quote:
 
Attack the message, not the messenger.


et tu Brute? :)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Cal says "It seem Dan has presented a very good case. I don't understand the attack on him. I have not seen what has been described. What I see is fairly common. He disagrees with most of the posters so his is "ranting". Dan I am used to that so don't feel too alone."

No one is attacking him. I am addressing his argument. I in general agree with his argument that Walmart has a right to close just as I agree Canadian's have a right to make demands. Could both be wrong? Perhaps.

At the same time I am pointing out that his constant decidedly liberal remarks about liberals, leftists and socialists are unfounded and irrelevant baiting if not flaming. It only degrades free expresion of opinions and ideas.

Is my "decidedly liberal" imitation the same? You decide. But you can't have it both ways.

I also understand that you do not distinguish between attacking messages and attacking messengers.

There is nothing personal involved here. Do not make and take everything personal. I am just doing my job.

Stick to the message. The opinions and ideas expressed by all are quite interesting and informative. Yours, Dan's, Sylvia's, Jack's, everyone's.

If you think you are being treated unfairly because others are baiting and/or flaming you and getting away with it, please point it out and one of the admins will moderate it.

Most people accept that with gratitude.

Please carry on. Pardon the disruption. Men at work. Posted Image
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
DanHouck
Feb 16 2005, 08:05 AM
Quote:
 
Your posts trying to rationalize everything to fit your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


Quote:
 
Attack the message, not the messenger.


et tu Brute? :)

See the above. I am addressing the message, not, as you, the messenger. Don't take and make everything personal.

Ask Cicero.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
It goes beyond merchandize retailers; The fast food chains do the same thing. One or two key people who are full time and a bunch of part-time people who are unskilled. It is probably true of other businesses too. It saves money by not having to provide benefits. Walmart will survive as will the people in the areas where they come and go. Competing against such companies usually comes down to service which cannot be provided adequately by the unskilled help. Walmart survives because a vast majority of the population doesn't require much service.
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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DanHouck
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Land of Enchantment NM
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. . .your world view of what is good for all is the only liberal, left-leaning, authoritative socialist opinion here.


This is a personal statement about me. Why don't you just admit that some times you get riled up like the rest of us and get personal too? It's OK, it is called being human. :)

BTW, what is this if not a personal statement:

Quote:
 
You perpetuate oppression with discrimination and give no reason for your hostility toward them.


I've never disputed that Canadians have the right to make demands. I have attacked and ridiculed the idea that WalMart is some evil "abomination" because they chose not to cave into those demands.

I have definitely labeled some of the views expressed above as socialist. Socialism at its core involves worker control of the enterprise rather than control by the owners of that enterprise. That is at the heart of this particularly situation and that is what several of the posters are advocating. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . .

As for the socialist nature of unions, I suggest this google: "unions and socialism". it is crammed with papers from socialists and communists detailing the relationship the collectivist philosophy has with unionism. The connection between unions and socialism is hardly absurd, what is absurd is to pretend it doesn't exist.

Here's a very evenhanded, even pro-socialism definition I found:

Quote:
 
Socialism, in its many philosophical and social scientific manifestations, is grounded in the idea that the best of all possible human societies is one based on cooperation and nurturing, rather than competition and greed.  As a guiding philosophy for organizing family life, socialism has widespread support, even among conservatives.  Nevertheless, socialism is a protean concept:  defined, for social scientific purposes, in many different ways --- presenting different faces, as it were.  It is defined within Marxian theory as a transitional stage between capitalism and communism:  a stage within which the capitalist economy is controlled by a pro-worker government that gradually puts into place the conditions for communism. Some have further defined socialism as implying a change in property ownership, such that the major capitalist enterprises become state capitalist enterprises (owned by the state and used for the purpose of bringing about the aforementioned transition).  Socialism can also be defined, in a non-Marxian manner, as simply implying a pro-worker government that will use state policies to improve the lives of working people without any presumption that the state will try to create communism.  Indeed, some socialists (defining their socialism in this non-Marxian way) might even be opposed to communism and simply favor a more benign form of capitalism (the Swedish "Middle Way," perhaps).


http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/...ism_defined.htm

Have a nice day.
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CalRed
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Sylvia

You are right in your assessment that many of the products sold in Wal-Mart stores are of foreign make. However I use the word many instead of most. Wal-Mart has a pretty good supply of American made products.

Wal-Mart sells American made, shoes, clothes, underwear, jewelry, automotive products, cosmetics, medical products, groceries, furniture, small appliances, etc. etc. etc.......

If the product is made in America and is profitable, then Wal-Mart will sell it. Do you realize that Wal-Mart now is one of the largest grocery chains in the country? One of the largest automotive suppliers in the country? They would be the largest American home entertainment dealer in the country as well but those products are no longer made in America. No television or VCR is made in America any longer. The unions drove the companies out of the U.S. long ago. The story is the same with many products. They just aren't made here but the public still wants them so Wal-Mart will sell them.

Consider products made in Japan. Japanese workers (skilled) make approximately $1,000 per week in U.S. dollars. In addition they get twice that in an annual bonus plus they get a job bonus, their medical care is fully paid, they get commuting expenses, free housing and Social Security paid. More highly skilled workers get about 2/3 again more than that. 8,500,000 yen in annual salary is fairly typical for a computer technical job, for example. Also their jobs are guaranteed for life.

Now consider the cost of getting their products to America. Why is Wal-Mart able to sell their goods cheaper than ours? Can it be because unskilled helpers in American plants demand $30+ per hour plus all the benefits for their services? Is the quality of American made products declining?

When I go to a retail store in the U.S. such as Sears, Penny's, etc. and want to buy just a general quality dress shirt, I pay about $45 for that shirt. And it's usually made overseas. If I want a name brand made in America I will pay about $85 for the same shirt. If I am at Burdines, Macy's, Dillards or one of the better known stores I will pay almost twice that. I just recently bought a pretty good suit at Burdines for only $499.00 and they wanted to charge for altering the sleeves. Problem is it was made in Hong Kong. American companies can't even make them to sell at that price anymore. The truth is that better suits are made in Hong Kong than this country anyhow.

My point is that the price of the product is not always the best answer. At Wal-Mart I can get a pretty good dress shirt for about $20, maybe made in Bangladesh or somewhere like that and I may have to get a size or half size larger that what I really wear but that same shirt made in the same place at Sears or Pennys will still cost about $10 more than at Wal-Mart.

As I stated before, to combat Wal-Mart, just buy somewhere else.

Japan has the highest GNP in the world and an unemployment rate of about 2%.
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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