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What Kind Of People Are Teaching Our Children
Topic Started: Jan 31 2005, 11:11 PM (2,987 Views)
CalRed
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Sylvia

Remember some posts can be edited without showing it was edited.

;)
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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corky52
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Cal,


"Remember some posts can be edited without showing it was edited"



If you have an accusation to make come out and make it or drop the innuendo!

Either put up or shut up!
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
abradf2519
Feb 8 2005, 09:43 AM
cmoehle
Feb 2 2005, 01:25 PM
Is he a moron because you disagree with a biased third party news editor's distortion of what he actually said? I may not agree with his views but wouldn't call him a moron--I would call the editor a moron for knowingly distorting facts.

This guy is a tenured professor who makes an incorrect analogy between accountants, programmers, and marketing people in the financial industry and Adolf Eichman, who was Hitler's managers of the "Jewish problem". He wants you to think these kinds of people, of which I am one, are on the same moral level of Eichman though who's actions resulted in the deaths of millions of Jews.

I take great exception to this analogy for personal reasons, because I have worked in the WTC in the past. It could have been me killed in the those towers on 911, but fortunately I was several miles away working on 46th and 6th ave in the diamond district.

I am being nice and fair when I say the guys a moron, too stupid to make a proper analogy. Personally I would like to beat the crap out of him, for the insult to me and people that I work with, but that would be wrong.

I agree with your interpretation of his analogy. It is such a simple analogy. And simply wrong. It is a socialist view. Even Bin Laden with his fascist view is wrong in his similarly seeing the capital of the free market world as part of his enemy. It is the only friend liberal democracy has with which to survive and exand.

As I have said from the start of this thread, I do not disagree with him. But I do not need misrepresentations or distortions or innuendo to beat a straw man to the gorund in a ludricrous attempt to elevate myself, I can simply criticize what he actually said and in the process promote what I believe. That is how free speech in the marketplace of ideas works...for most.

Anyway, Alan, :tiphat:
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Quote:
 
Remember some posts can be edited without showing it was edited.

wink.gif


Hmmm, can't back up your statements huh? Why doesn't that surprise me? :floorrollin: :floorrollin: :floorrollin: :floorrollin:

Sylvia
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
OK, enough of that, OK?

Now that what the prof said has been clarified and what was wrong with it pointed out, let us go on to the next of two questions I still have.

First, since what the prof said is simple enough for most skeptical, critical thinking, open-minded college students, old enough to serve in war, to grasp and formulate an argument against--I wouldn't call either Alan or myself intellectual elitists--even if the prof presented the argument in the classroom, should he be removed from his teaching position for it in a nation that values free speech?

Second, which was actually raised early on but ignored, the title of this thread is intended to create the impression this prof is typical of what's going on in our schools. The argument in the first post and throughout is based on one single individual prof. Can someone explain to me how on earth it is possible to jump from that one example over a wide and glaring logical gap to the conclusion it is typical?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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Chris, pardon me while I pass out!
















You agreed with me! Wow!

You said: "should he be removed from his teaching position for it in a nation that values free speech?"

I don't think a moron should hold a high paying job as a professor. If I was a moron like him, I would get fired. But we have this thing called "tenure", and once you get it, you can be as big of a moron as you want and you won't loose your job in the college. I wouldn't want to send my kid to a college where some professor can say stupid things while I am paying through the nose for him to say it.

Is this prof typical? I hope not, but we keep hearing about them!
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
It's my understanding that this professor has received death threats for voicing his opinion. Very sad!

University students are not children--they are supposed to be capable of critical thought. He has given them much food for thought.

Relieve him of his teaching duties? No -- that is antithetical to freedom.

What is a 'typical' professor?

Sylvia






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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Alan, the smiley for that is this :faint:

Actually, whenever you're being reasonable I tend to listen if not agree, and that's fairly often. Even when we do disagree it is good, honest, straightforward disagreement that makes me think, hopefully you, and maybe a few others.

I don't agree he is a moron. He is not a dolt, not like the idiot author of the lead in piece to this thread. If you read the two pieces of writing posted here he is quite logical, intelligently so, within the confines of his point of view.

He is simply, from my point of view of the world, wrong.

Calling him a moron and other names, trumping up charges against him, misrepresenting his position, etc, are the weakest forms of arguments.

Better to simply put your argument up against his and let people decide which world they want to live in.

That is exactly why he is a professor, to present an alternative point of view, that is what education is in part about.

Let this guy explain, the author of Underfire, who shares your view of the man.
Quote:
 
...This is a morally depraved view, and deserves the harshest condemnation from all decent people.

Nonetheless, Churchill ought not be fired from his tenured professorship for this view. Justice Hugo Black was right to say that First Amendment rights "must be accorded to the ideas we hate or sooner or later they will be denied to the ideas we cherish." And the same is true of broader academic freedom principles, which flow from not just from the First Amendment rights of public university employees, but also from their tenure contracts and from professional standards of academic freedom.

If the Ward Churchills of the world are fired for their speech, disgusting as it is, that would be a perfect precedent for broader speech suppression in the future.....

At the same time, other faculties and administrations - perhaps with the prodding of overzealous legislators - could use the precedent to fire even decent, serious critics of American foreign policy. In a legal and political system built on analogy and precedent, narrow restrictions on free speech do lead to larger ones....
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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CalRed
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Just a few words on what other people think of this man.

"Also today, Gov. Bill Owens called on Churchill to resign his CU faculty position, saying taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize "outrageous and insupportable" views that defy the facts of history."

In a letter to CU's College Republicans released today, Owens asked for Churchill's resignation as a teacher.

"The thousands of innocent people - and innocent they were - who were murdered on September 11 were murdered by evil cowards," the governor's letter said. "Indeed, if anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for human life."

Hundreds of relatives of Sept. 11 victims protested Churchill's scheduled appearance and Gov. George Pataki said Hamilton officials made a mistake in inviting Churchill.

"I am appalled first that this person with such a warped sense of right and wrong and of humanity teaches at a higher education institution anywhere in America," Pataki said. "But I am equally, or perhaps even more, appalled that Hamilton College in this state has invited that person to participate in a forum. It is wrong. There is a difference between freedom of speech and inviting a bigoted terrorist supporter."

Source

"The professor's remarks go beyond dissent. His interpretation of what happened on 9/11 is factually inaccurate, and his defamation of the attack's victims is indefensible and reprehensible," said Rep. Mark Udall, D-Colo.


Rep. Bob Beauprez, R-Colo., said that although Churchill is tenured at CU, he should immediately resign and offer an apology for "his outrageous comments."

"The utter and callous disregard shown by Churchill toward the family members of those who lost their lives on 9/11 is beyond comprehension," Beauprez said.

Phil Klinkner, professor of government at Hamilton College, called Churchill's comments "morally repugnant."

Phil DiStefano, CU's interim chancellor, said Churchill's views don't reflect those of the university.

Review may lead to Churchill firing

By Catherine Tsai
The Associated Press


AP / Ed Andrieski
University of Colorado Police officer Greg Barthlome arrests senior Dustin Craun after he and other students allegedly distrupted the start of a CU Regents meeting in Aurora this afternoon.




Aurora - At a meeting Thursday distrupted by demonstrators, the University of Colorado Board of Regents issued an apology to "all Americans" for a professor's comparision of World Trade Center victims to Nazis as administrators began the first steps of possible dismissal

At the regents meeting, Steven Crow, a 64-year-old CU-Denver architecture student, told the students they had just prevented the regents from free speech, then called them "fascist thugs." He later said Churchill has a right to free speech but not on the taxpayers' dollar.

Reacting to Churchill's reference to Eichmann, Crow said: "That is a stupid assertion, and stupid people shouldn't be at universities." About a dozen professors were present, including law professor Barbara Bintliff, chairwoman of Boulder Faculty Assembly.


It seems everyone doesns't agreed that the professor should be allowed to make such morally repugnant statements.
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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CalRed
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And the Colorado legislature has had their say. The senate just passed the same resolution as the house listed here:

Text of House resolution on Churchill

By The Associated Press





Here is the text of House Joint Resolution 1011, supporting victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, as adopted unanimously Wednesday by the Colorado House of Representatives. (Capitalization is at it appears in the resolution).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHEREAS, The tragedy of September 11, 2001, marked one of the darkest days in American history;

and WHEREAS, The terrorist attacks cost more than 3,000 innocent people their lives;

and WHEREAS, The pain of the families who lost loved ones in the September 11, 2001, attacks is immeasurable;

and WHEREAS, The healing process for those who lost a family member in the September 11, 2001, attacks is still ongoing;

and WHEREAS, It is important for the people of Colorado to aid in and support that healing process;


and WHEREAS, Professor Ward L. Churchill's essay, "Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" related to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, strikes an evil and inflammatory blow against America's healing process;

and WHEREAS, Professor Churchill's essay contains a number of statements and contentions that are deplorable and do not reflect the values of the people of the State of Colorado;

and WHEREAS, Professor Churchill's essay, which claims that the victims at the World Trade Center were not innocent, states, "As for those in the World Trade Center, ... well, really, let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But Innocent, Gimme a break." And Professor Churchill goes on to compare the innocent victims of the September 11, 2001, attacks to Adolph Eichmann, the man who executed Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews during World War II;

and WHEREAS, The sentiment of these statements strikes at the hearts of those who lost a loved one in the World Trade Center attack;

and WHEREAS, The victims at the World Trade Center were innocent in every sense of the word and should always be remembered as innocent victims of an unprovoked attack on America;

now, therefore, Be It Resolved by the House of Representatives of the Sixty-fifth General Assembly of the State of Colorado, the Senate concurring herein: (1) That the General Assembly expresses its heartfelt sympathy for the victims of the September 11, 2001, tragedy and their families; and (2) That the General Assembly commemorates the lives lost during the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Joint Resolution be sent to University of Colorado President Elizabeth Hoffman, the University of Colorado at Boulder Chancellor's office, the University of Colorado Board of Regents, and University of Colorado at Boulder Department of Ethics Chairman Ward L. Churchill.

Sourced
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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CalRed
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Even the governor got it right. Strange how a few on this forum continue to defend this outrageous act by a stupid man.


Text of Owens' letter on Churchill

By DenverPost.com



Here is the text of Gov. Bill Owens' letter Tuesday on the subject of the controversy surrounding University of Colorado ethnic studies professor Ward Churchill. The letter was sent to the College Republicans at the University of Colorado and its president, Isaiah Lechowit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 1, 2005

Dear Friends:

We have come to a teaching moment at the University of Colorado. I applaud every person on the University of Colorado campus who has come to speak out against the indecent, insensitive and inappropriate comments and writings of Ward Churchill.


Advertisement

All decent people, whether Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, should denounce the views of Ward Churchill. Not only are his writings outrageous and insupportable, they are at odds with the facts of history. The thousands of innocent people - and innocent they were - who were murdered on September 11 were murdered by evil cowards. Indeed, if anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for innocent human life.

No one wants to infringe on Mr. Churchill's right to express himself. But we are not compelled to accept his pro-terrorist views at state taxpayer subsidy nor under the banner of the University of Colorado. Ward Churchill besmirches the University and the excellent teaching, writing and research of its faculty.

Ideas have consequences, and words have meaning. If there is one lesson that we hope that all Coloradans take from this sad case - and especially our students - it is that civility and appropriate conduct are important. Mr. Churchill's views are not simply anti-American. They are at odds with simple decency, and antagonistic to the beliefs and conduct of civilized people around the world. His views are far outside the mainstream of civil discourse and useful academic work.

His resignation as chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department was a good first step. We hope that he will follow this step by resigning his position on the faculty of the University of Colorado.

Sincerely,

Bill Owens

Source
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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CalRed
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Member
A few more of Churchill's outrageous statements:


Top state and University of Colorado officials say more radical comments by professor Ward Churchill calling for the United States to be put "out of existence" and saying that more "9/11's are necessary" should be included in a review of whether to fire the controversial professor.

Churchill, who is under fire for comparing World Trade Center victims to a top Nazi, made the comments in April in Satya magazine, a Brooklyn-based monthly publication that promotes animal rights and social justice.

University officials said they are gathering all of Churchill's writings, interviews and statements to determine whether he violated his terms of employment.

Regent Michael Carrigan said the interview should be included in the review.

"These additional statements concern me, and I condemn anyone who thinks violence is productive," Carrigan said. "I hope that chancellor (Phil) DiStefano includes these statements in his investigation."

The Satya comments have prompted Gov. Bill Owens to renew calls for Churchill's dismissal.

"It's amazing that the more we look at Ward Churchill, the more outrageous, treasonous statements we hear from Churchill," Owens said. "Churchill has clearly called for violence against the state, and no country is required to subsidize its own destruction. That's what we're doing with Ward Churchill."
In the question-and-answer interview, Churchill is asked what should happen to America. "I want the state gone: Transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether."

Another question: What are the solutions to U.S. misdeeds? Churchill answers in the interview: "One of the things I've suggested is that it may be that more 9/11's are necessary."



Keep on defending him. He will hang himself soon...

Source
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Keep on hanging him and your rights right along with him with appeals to authority and popularity.


You don't seem to get that do you, Cal, what's defended here is free speech, not a man.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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CalRed
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And all those people listed are wrong. The Governor, The Colorado Legislature, The Board of Regents, The state Senator, State Representatives, Students, etc. etc.

Must be comforting to you to be able to defend him. I'll bet there are many thousand of veterans and military people who don't feel as you do. In fact the list of people who feel as you do is getting shorter and shorter as this idiot keeps babbling his hate of America. Wait and see what else he has said. All his speeches and essays are going to be exposed now.

This is not a free speech issue but one of idiocy and as one of the statements said, "on our dollar too."

Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Cal, you can continue to twist what I have said into whatever you like. As I have said since my first post and developed in exchange with Alan, I believe the prof is wrong in his world view. But I do defend free speech and academic freedom. This is not Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.

I also believe people can see right through you and just how intellectually dishonest you have been with your tactics of baiting, twisting and poisoning the well of discussion here just as you want to poison the well of speech and academic freedom in this nation despite the fact our young men and women are fighting and dying for it.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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