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| What Kind Of People Are Teaching Our Children | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 31 2005, 11:11 PM (2,976 Views) | |
| Colo_Crawdad | Feb 13 2005, 05:08 PM Post #211 |
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Lowell
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The point, it seems to me to be two fold. One, while CalRed certainly has a right to speak about Churchill's writings, he really ought to speak with some degree of fairness and intellectual honesty. Second, CalRed should have absolutely nothing to say about Churchill's employment by Colorado. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| tomdrobin | Feb 13 2005, 11:58 PM Post #212 |
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Lowell CalRed has already told you he was a former teacher. Although I haven't mentioned it previously, I too spent a year as a prof at the local community college. No, of course that doesn't make me an expert. When I was in college one of the best instructors I had was one who worked as an engineer, and taught part time. It just amazes me how you won't give an inch and dogmatically defend the indefensable. That IMO, is an undesireable trait developed in many years of acadamia, where you were the authority figure, and your peers were like minded, and having little contact with the realities of the work a day world. The incident with my educator friend was not provoked by me, unless you consider disagreement provoking. He just blew me off like I was one of his less informed students. I won't hold it against him, as I understand why, you should too. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2005, 05:38 AM Post #213 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Lowell, I think I have to agree with Cal and Tom on this point, they not only have a right to opine about the publicized essay but also, given the ever increasing nationlization of politics in this country, to opine on what Colorado and Colorado U do about this. Not only a right but a responsibility. I may not agree with their opinions, may even find theirs obnoxious (to echo a point in another parallel thread), but I do agree and support thier being free to express their opinion--and here their feeling free to do so. On this I am consistent for I also feel because the world is affected by US policy that the world should also have not only the right but that responsibility. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Feb 14 2005, 07:26 AM Post #214 |
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Lowell
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I'm going to go off topic one more time. Apparently I need to apologize for not being clear in an earlier post. I will say openly that I consider very few of my past college professors and instructors "teachers." They have spent very little time in studying the art and science of teaching. My reference was cons=concerning those in the real trenches of public education. Often those who are not there and have never been there, other than as a student, are the most vocal in their criticisms. The loudest and longest harangues against the National Education Association often come, not from real teachers, but from those who "know" all there is to know about education because they were once students in public schools. Again, I compare that type of criticism to one who thinks they "know" all about performing surgery because they once had a surgical procedure performed on them. Please note that this is not intended to degrade or take away anything from college instructors and/or professors. Now, back to the topic, I would agree that CarRed and tomrobin have some right and responsibility to be critical of Colorado"s hiring practices if they do not base that criticism on Churchill being an employee of the taxpayers. I say this since such a very small proportion of his salary may come from tax money and because absolutely no tax money, other than that paid by Colorado taxpayers, goes to his salary. That restriction is by law. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| Jim Miller | Feb 14 2005, 07:34 AM Post #215 |
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"I'm going to go off topic one more time. Apparently I need to apologize for not being clear in an earlier post. I will say openly that I consider very few of my past college professors and instructors "teachers." They have spent very little time in studying the art and science of teaching. My reference was cons=concerning those in the real trenches of public education. Often those who are not there and have never been there, other than as a student, are the most vocal in their criticisms. The loudest and longest harangues against the National Education Association often come, not from real teachers, but from those who "know" all there is to know about education because they were once students in public schools. Again, I compare that type of criticism to one who thinks they "know" all about performing surgery because they once had a surgical procedure performed on them. Please note that this is not intended to degrade or take away anything from college instructors and/or professors." I agree 100%. I am constantly amazed at how many education "experts" there are out there that have never been behind a teacher's desk. |
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Jim Pennsylvania in the Summer Florida in the Winter | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2005, 12:03 PM Post #216 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Yes, some of us are just poor simple peasants, I mean parents concerned about their childrens' education. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| DanHouck | Feb 14 2005, 12:32 PM Post #217 |
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Land of Enchantment NM
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To suggest that direct salary is the only basis that determines whether Churchill is an employee of the university and hence the taxpayers who OWN that university, is patent nonsense. Fom this source, a comparison of a number of colleges, we find that the University of Colorado got $15420 in revenues, $7197 was tuition, $2680 was grants, mostly Federal from the above, $643 from "sales and services", $3153 for operations from Colorado taxpayers, $830 for capital improvements from Colorado taxpayers, $917 from gifts and endowments. So Colorado taxpayers provided DIRECTLY towards salaries and benefits for about 20% of EVERY employee's paycheck. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:a4Z6X...+of+funds&hl=en In addition, all grant projectos are charged a portion of the university's general overhead under the contract category of "general and overhead". Usually, that is somewhere in the range of 10% of the total contract cost. That's worth another $200 or so. Sales and service revenue may or may not be directly allocated to the sales/service provider within the University. We'll assume it is although a more general practice is to throw everything in the same "pot" and then allocate the budget from there. Although not direct compensation, instructors cannot "teach" without a classroom to teach in that is constructed, maintained, heated and cooled. They all have offices with telephone and I would assume internet service. These had to be built, maintained, and provided with utilities. These facilities are owned by the taxpayers and supplied to Churchill as part of his compensation since he obviously could not "practice" without them. The University is owned by the State of Colorado, that makes it public property and Churchill is a public employee whose check is signed by officials of a public entity, the University of Colorado. If this goes to Court, the ACLU and Churchill will be suing the STATE OF COLORADO. The University of Colorado, the Board of Regents, probably Governor Owens will be named as co-defendants. Dan |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Feb 14 2005, 12:41 PM Post #218 |
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Lowell
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Dan, Thanks for supporting what I really said, that only taxpayers of Colorado support Churchill's salary. Therefore, only Colorado taxpayers are his employers. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| DanHouck | Feb 14 2005, 12:45 PM Post #219 |
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Land of Enchantment NM
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Well obviously in terms of who directly has a dog in this fight, it is COLORADO taxpayers. However, that is not what your statement that I quoted said. It used the generic term "taxpayers". And, as noted above, some of the Federal grant funds DO go to support the general operations of the University. You're welcome. Dan |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Feb 14 2005, 03:52 PM Post #220 |
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Lowell
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Uh . . . . Dan, You might want to reread that statement of mine which you quoted. I think it says that two specific people cannot claim they were taxpayers who paid Churchill's salary. Neither of them are from Colorado. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| DanHouck | Feb 14 2005, 04:51 PM Post #221 |
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Land of Enchantment NM
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Uh Lowell. . .
That last sentence does NOT say "their (CarRed and tomrobin) employee as taxpayers." Hence, there is no connecting reference between "taxpayers" and Calred/tomrobin. So I got the impression you were trying to make the case once again that, because the majority of operating funds come from tuitions and not direct taxpayer subsidies, that Churchill was not an employee of a public institution. Thank you for clarifying the reference in your statement. Dan |
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| abradf2519 | Feb 14 2005, 08:05 PM Post #222 |
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Does anybody really think that all a Liberal would have to say is "er -- uh"?
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2005, 08:08 PM Post #223 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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No, a right wing cartoon would show the left winger all blah blah blah and the right winger not hearing a word. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| abradf2519 | Feb 14 2005, 10:18 PM Post #224 |
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Member
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You missed the point.....
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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| tomdrobin | Feb 14 2005, 11:15 PM Post #225 |
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Most of my experience is in the automotive field. Lots of people are experts on cars, and don't engineer or build them. Why should I have the audacity to think I know more than the customer who is paying the bills. That reinforces what I said earlier, those experts in the classroom often have the idea, that they have all the answers, and should not have any accountability. That's the very reason, those who pay the bills take them to task on occassion. |
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8:22 AM Jul 11