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| What Kind Of People Are Teaching Our Children | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 31 2005, 11:11 PM (2,978 Views) | |
| cmoehle | Feb 12 2005, 03:33 PM Post #181 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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While I will not respond to Cal's baiting, I will respond to more substantive posts like Dan's. Dan, I agree with your post as regards tenure contract breaking fraud, if that is indeed the case he should be fired. However, when you turn to free speech and academic rights and proceed to make unsubstantiated charges about someone who "advocate/support/endorse the killing of said taxpayers and the end of this country" then I have to ask you to substantiate those accusations. That has been the crux of the argument here, did he or didn't he. Substantiate your charges in a reasonable way. I am open to to any such explanation, so long as it is half way reasonable and at least a little more persuasive than whimpy appeals to popular opinion, and even weaker appeals to emotion, and certainly not pitiful attacking of messengers, I mean, you know, those typical appeals to populism the Nazis were so good at as some accuse the little profs of our universities. Until you do your charge of "those of you here that seem to advocate free speech no matter what" is empty. Specify the no matter what, if you will, if you can. Substantiate your premise and I will join you in conclusion. Is that too much to ask? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| DanHouck | Feb 12 2005, 03:33 PM Post #182 |
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Land of Enchantment NM
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I suppose you find people who kill you "provocative" as well? LOL! |
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| cmoehle | Feb 12 2005, 04:29 PM Post #183 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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So now the provocative prof killed, my my my.
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cruiser | Feb 12 2005, 04:36 PM Post #184 |
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Some peoples mind's are a closed shop. Controversy is healthy for the brain, don't attempt to stifle it. |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| CalRed | Feb 12 2005, 04:40 PM Post #185 |
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Member
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Response from University Colorado-Boulder to my email sent last week.. SUBJECT: Response Concerning Professor Churchill FROM: Philip P. DiStefano, Interim Chancellor SENDER: Pauline Hale, UCB Communications Executive Director DATE: February 10, 2005 On behalf of the Board of Regents and President Hoffman, I want to thank you for taking the time to comment on Professor Ward Churchill. While the issue is difficult, we can only be served by having an open and honest dialog as we move forward together. Let me state unequivocally that Professor Churchill's views are his own and do not represent the views of University of Colorado faculty, staff, students, administration or Regents. As you may suspect, we have received comments from concerned local and national citizens expressing viewpoints that range from urging for his dismissal from the CU-Boulder faculty and other disciplinary measures to supporting his right to express his opinions. At the Feb. 3 Board of Regents meeting, I announced a course of action that provides due process. Over the next few weeks, I will oversee a thorough examination of Professor Churchill's writings, speeches, tape recordings and other works. The purpose of this internal review is to determine whether Professor Churchill overstepped his bounds as a faculty member, showing cause for dismissal as outlined in the Laws of the Regents. At the conclusion of this examination, I will determine whether to issue a notice of intent to dismiss for cause, other action as appropriate, or no action. If a notice to dismiss for cause or some other action is issued then the subsequent process will be governed by the Laws of the Regents. Before such a decision can be made, the University must observe due process as required by the U.S. Constitution and the Laws of the Regents. The University is obligated to carefully balance the protections afforded by the First Amendment, as well as follow very specific University rules and processes for faculty discipline. Our processes will guide our actions in the most thoughtful and equitable manner. I am hopeful that you will consider the actions already taken to deal with this matter that strikes so deeply at both our national conscience and the core tenets of any institution of higher education. President Hoffman has stated, "The rights afforded those of us in the academic community to pursue our scholarly work come with a heavy responsibility to behave with integrity and professionalism and to meet the highest ethical standards our disciplines demand. These standards create the boundaries within which academic freedom rests." I encourage you to visit the CU-Boulder News Center Web site at for additional information and updates on this situation. Again, we thank you for your interest in the University of Colorado and for expressing your opinion. Sincerely, Philip P. DiStefano Interim Chancellor For Information Only |
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Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 12 2005, 04:55 PM Post #186 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Cruiser, not so sure, I mean don't jump to conclusions. I don't see it as closed minds as much as just the old one-sided fallacy. Read that and see what you think. Everyone suffers it. But you're right about controversy. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Feb 12 2005, 05:08 PM Post #187 |
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Member
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What ever happened to the rights of a state to manage it's own affairs? I see only one person on this board from Colorado, but I must be wrong because there are so many telling the people of Colorado how to run their business! Cal, where do you get off sticking your nose in to how the people of another state run they're affairs? I hope the people at the university gave your email all the weight it deserves, about that of the photons used to deliver it. |
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| cruiser | Feb 12 2005, 05:28 PM Post #188 |
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Way back in europe before the enlightenment they burned and tortured those who did not believe in religious dogma. What do we fear if if these people speak their mind. Is our constitution and country so weak that we can not let one person speak his mind no matter right or wrong? Enjoy controversy, shed your fears and listen to those whe would challenge the status quo. Would you be one of those who chose to burn people at the stake, whose opinion's differed from yours |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| cruiser | Feb 12 2005, 05:48 PM Post #189 |
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Look at what churchill has done for us. Forced us to discuss issues that we would have never have dreamed of. How dare we question our government as he has. I think he is a plus that may open our thought processes to allow us to learn how to discriminate between right an wrong. The more people who question, question, question, the better |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| CalRed | Feb 12 2005, 08:49 PM Post #190 |
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Member
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Corky That wasn't my e-mail. Reading my post I see it would indicate that it was mine. It was copied by me from a website and posted here. I would not write the University of Colorado about this matter, mostly because of the reasons you mentioned. What I believe and think should not enter into their decision. If it was a university in my state, then I would feel obligated to write. That does not change my feelings however. I do realize that it is their decision and not mine. I have already stated what I would do if given the chance. |
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Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage | |
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| CalRed | Feb 12 2005, 08:54 PM Post #191 |
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Member
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Here is the University's official stance on this issue and I don't think we could expect anything less or more. Remarks By Chancellor Phil DiStefano At The CU Board Of Regents Special Meeting Feb. 3, 2005 In the past week, the University of Colorado has been at the center of a fierce debate that has raised a fundamental question: what are the boundaries of free expression, academic freedom and tenure protections? This question is especially salient in the face of the most offensive - the most appalling -- political expression, such as many of Professor Ward Churchill's comments in his essay regarding the events of September 11. As I have said, I personally find the statements in Professor Churchill's essay to be repugnant and hurtful to everyone touched by that tragedy. And I know that many of you share those feelings. Beyond our visceral reactions to statements within the essay, we all have spent hours responding to parents, students, alumni, news media, and citizens throughout Colorado and across the country. The debate has fostered passionate calls for the immediate termination of Professor Churchill's employment based on his essay. We also have heard fervent pleas to uphold the tenets of the Constitution regarding free expression and due process, and the Laws of the Regents regarding academic freedom and tenure. Even as the debate continues, we must understand the serious nature of actions to terminate or suspend a professor on the basis of conduct that includes political speech. Before such a decision could be made, the University must observe due process as required by the U.S. Constitution and the Laws of the Regents. We must have faith in our processes to guide our actions in the most thoughtful and equitable manner. Therefore, today I announce a course of action that will provide due process, as well as help us understand the boundaries of our most fundamental protections as citizens and faculty members. Within the next 30 days, the Office of the Chancellor will launch and oversee a thorough examination of Professor Churchill's writings, speeches, tape recordings and other works. The purpose of this internal review is to determine whether Professor Churchill may have overstepped his bounds as a faculty member, showing cause for dismissal as outlined in the Laws of the Regents. Two primary questions will be examined in this review: (1) Does Professor Churchill's conduct, including his speech, provide any grounds for dismissal for cause, as described in the Regents' Laws? And (2) if so, is this conduct or speech protected by the First Amendment against University action? As Chancellor, I will personally conduct this review and will ask two distinguished deans, Arts and Sciences Dean Todd Gleeson and Law Dean David Getches, to assist me with this process. In this review, I will also draw upon additional resources, including University Counsel to provide legal advice as needed. At the conclusion of this examination, I will determine whether to issue a notice of intent to dismiss for cause, other action as appropriate, or no action. If a notice to dismiss for cause or some other action were to be issued, the subsequent process will be governed by the Laws of the Regents. At this time, I ask for your support of this course of action to address the important questions before us - in a manner that ensures due process and thoughtful examination. Indeed, the principles at stake deserve nothing less than our most careful deliberation. Thank you. |
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Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage | |
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| CalRed | Feb 12 2005, 09:03 PM Post #192 |
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Member
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Prof.'s Indian roots disputed Keetoowah Tribe says Ward Churchill is not a member By Stuart Steers, Rocky Mountain News February 4, 2005 The United Keetoowah Band Cherokee say University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill is not a member of their tribe. "He's not in the database at all and is not a member of the Keetoowah," said Georgia Mauldin, the tribal clerk in Tahlequah, Okla. Advertisement In his books and articles, Churchill has described himself as a member of the Keetoowah Cherokee tribe in Oklahoma. In past interviews, he's claimed to be one-sixteenth Cherokee. But the Keetoowah say that's not true. One Montana woman has an especially personal tale of confronting Churchill on his claim to American Indian heritage. She was taking one of Churchill's classes at CU in 1994 when she wrote an article for the Colorado Daily newspaper, saying there was no evidence he had any American Indian background. "For so long it was whispered on campus that he really isn't an Indian," said Jodi Rave, who studied journalism at CU. "Here you had the director of the Indian studies program and he's not an Indian." Rave, who interned at the Daily Camera in 1996, is a Mandan-Hidatsa Indian originally from North Dakota. She was recently a fellow in the prestigious Nieman program for journalists at Harvard University. In one of her journalism classes at CU, Rave was assigned to write a profile, and she decided to profile Churchill. She says she discovered that he had enrolled in the Keetoowah tribe under a program initiated by a former tribal chairman that let almost anyone sign up. She says the Keetoowah later discontinued that program and unenrolled the people who had joined under it. When her article came out, Rave says Churchill was furious and insisted that he did have American Indian lineage. She says Churchill can write what he wants, but his claim of American Indian heritage is bogus. Well if he isn't really an Indian then it's all over already. Source |
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Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage | |
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| corky52 | Feb 12 2005, 09:22 PM Post #193 |
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Cal, You admit that you neither live nor pay taxes in Colorado, why are you then so obsessed with how they handle their business? I've seen several people on here like you who are more than willing to mind the business of other people in areas far removed from their own, why do you think you deserve a say? |
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| tomdrobin | Feb 12 2005, 09:40 PM Post #194 |
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Corky The man wrote a book. And, in that book he said that at least some of the victims of 9-11 deserved it. Of course that happened in New York, so non residents of New York shouldn't be offended? And non residents of Colorado should not find it offensive either? I don't think that's a logical conclusion. What happened that day was a horrific national event. Prof. Churcill has the right to say what he wants, I would strongly defend that right. But, to work at a public instituion and say that. I don't think so. That's taking academic freedom a little to far. In most states you can be fired for saying something unflattering about your employer, or even smoking on your own time. And, that is an immediate firing. No due process, like their describing about this tenured professor. I think the whole idea of tenure is unionistic nonsense anyway. |
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| tomdrobin | Feb 12 2005, 10:05 PM Post #195 |
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Prof Churcill aside, I would like to post a few of my thoughts on the thread title, "What kind of People are Teaching Our Children". My guess is those teaching our children start out no different than you and I. They have varying beliefs and political philosphy. I have a sister and a niece who are teachers. Ordinarily I wouldn't have occassion to socially mix with a group of teachers, but a few years ago I belonged to a local running club. We had monthly pot luck social events which including running. Teachers must be health concious as we had quite a few members that were teachers. All were nice people BTW. I did notice that they took their profession seriously, and would often get together in a group and "talk shop". It appeared to me, they were rather like minded. Not necessarily politics. But, they all thought they were overworked and underpaid. I once made the mistake of challenging that assumption, and incurred the wrath of one member. It appeared to me, that they were isolated in a world of their peers, and didn't realize what was required of others professionals and laborers. One remarked to me that he didn't like it because someone working at the local auto plant made more money than him, and he had went to college. I remarked that he only worked 9 months a year at most, never had to work the night shift or do manual labor. He still didn't get it. Recently I've been seeing one of my former running club members at the club where I work out. He's retired from teaching high school english, and is now working part time at the local community college. Nice guy, and we've always had a pretty good repoir. That is until I disagreed with him on some minor fact about a mutual friends athletic/educational background. He just dismissed me, as if I were one of his students challenging his authority. At first I took offense, and then it hit me. This guy has been at the head of the class, as an authority figure for the last 40 years. No wonder he thinks he is always correct. Perhaps there should be some requirement for educators to revolve, from acadamia to the private sector periodically. That would give them the perspective they need think more openly. |
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8:22 AM Jul 11