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What Kind Of People Are Teaching Our Children
Topic Started: Jan 31 2005, 11:11 PM (2,980 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Jim Miller
Feb 11 2005, 08:12 PM
"(Get that yet, Jim?)"

Nope.

All I know is what he said.  9/11 victims are little Eichmanns.  Eichmann is a Nazi convicted of horrendous crimes.  Calling the 9/11 victims a Nazi is not that far of a stretch.

As an aside...you really don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you or sees things the same way as you do, eh?

Doesn't bother me at all, Jim. I do however think it kind of pointless when all they do is repeat repeat repeat. When their entire argument consists in parsing and quibling like Clinton about the verb to be . And equating Eichmann with all Nazis--overgeneralizing a specific. But then you said, you don't get it.


Jim, why when you have such a weak argument do you resort to ad hominem? (I figure because you were a teacher you would knw what that means, actually would figure you wouldn't use such fallacious argument..
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Jim Miller
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Bike,

Quite honestly, I don't ever remember me saying he should be fired. If you can point it out to me, I will apologize to you.

I do remember saying facetiously that perhaps he should be transferred to the custodial department. Or something like that. Fired, I don't think so. Yet.
Jim

Pennsylvania in the Summer
Florida in the Winter
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
cmoehle
Feb 11 2005, 07:52 PM
Jim Miller
Feb 11 2005, 06:54 PM
"Ward Churchill used a passage from a well-known colleague 99 years out of context..."

"Churchill misused a passage in fellow CU professor Patricia Limerick's work..."

"Churchill has misrepresented works..."

"Churchill misused a passage by Thornton to back up his claim..."

""He's making up a story out of his imagination,"..."

"Churchill was attempting to lend the names of acclaimed scholars to his "hostility toward Indian tribes."..."

Just how far does "free speech and academic freedom go?  Certainly not that far.

I would have been fired for any one of those offenses, let alone all of them.  Along with academic freedom goes academic responsibility.

Gee, that's right, you used to be a teacher. Amazing. Did you make fun of students like you have made fun of members here? Don't answer--it's a loaded question. But we could have agreed on the following when I asked would your restrict his rights.


Jim "Just how far does "free speech and academic freedom go? Certainly not that far."

No, not that far.

He can exercise academic freedom for as long as he does not breach his tenure contract and give the university just cause to fire him--as Goldberg pointed out.

He can exercise free speech for as long as it breaks no law and harms no person.

Your examples all cause harm. That is the essense of Mill's Harm Principle. Crossing that line is cause for firing, fines, even confinement.

Indeed, with rights come responsibilities.

Jim says "Again, I guess I have to ask. Does free speech have no limits? If so, help me out here. Does anything go disguised as academic freedom?"

Are you Cal, Jim? He does that all the time, acts like he didn't read an answer to his questions.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Jim Miller
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Oh come on now Chris. Don't let me get to you. Life is too short. Cheer up. Be happy. :P
Jim

Pennsylvania in the Summer
Florida in the Winter
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Alan "I don't want to argue the estabishment issue here"

If you insist on discussing, I also said he violated free exercise--akin to free speech.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Abrad

Quote:
 
Ward Churchill has a RIGHT to say what he said. I am not agueing that. I just would rather see him saying those things (the inacuracies, bad analogies, and missuse of facts) OUTSIDE the college. IN the college he should have the acedemic freedom to say what he wants provided he is accurate, uses good analogies and uses facts correctly. Isn't this what we want them to teach our children to do?


Why do you think you should control what teachers teach in Universities? In what way should teachers be subject to special laws and rules?

Wasn't it you who said you had little use for the humanities and art? That they were not useful for getting a job?

Sylvia

On edit ... would you have philosophers, teach only things that are useful? ... or would you have any philosophers, historians, artist, etc., at all in YOUR concept of higher learning?
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Jim Miller
Feb 11 2005, 08:35 PM
Oh come on now Chris. Don't let me get to you. Life is too short. Cheer up. Be happy. :P

The impression Jim is it's getting to you. The teacher who repeats and mocks. Keep in mind when someone says you are attacking he is not shouting ouch you hurt me. He is pointing out how you expose your frustration at not having a leg to stand on and thereby hurt only yourself. Remember, what I said earlier, those who always insult show only that they are an insulting person.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Jim Miller
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"Jim says "Again, I guess I have to ask. Does free speech have no limits? If so, help me out here. Does anything go disguised as academic freedom?"

Rhetorical question = a question to which no answer is expected.
Jim

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Florida in the Winter
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Jim Miller
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"Remember, what I said earlier, those who always insult show only that they are an insulting person. "

I have it memorized Chris. Thanks

Sometimes our own words can bite us in the arse, eh?
Jim

Pennsylvania in the Summer
Florida in the Winter
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
You can't holler fire in a public, crowded place.

Free speech that is proven to have incited a riot is against the law.

Sylvia

Other than that, Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me! In other words, physical assult is against the law, but words are not.
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abradf2519
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sylley2000
Feb 11 2005, 08:36 PM
Why do you think you should control what teachers teach in Universities? In what way should teachers be subject to special laws and rules?

Wasn't it you who said you had little use for the humanities and art? That they were not useful for getting a job?

Sylvia

Yes! I think professors should do a good job!

Have you ever been screwed by a company? Gotten ripped off? Don't you think the person that ripped you off with their incompitence should be fired?

Professors should know how to make good analogies! They should know how to use information correctly! They should not twist the truth!

Professors should not spew Propaganda!
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
He was not spewing propaganda. He was using an anology to illustrate that if the United States has a policy that attracts terrorist activity, that it will reap what it sews. Many of us here understood that ... you apparently do not!!!

Sylvia

Seems like you saw the word Eichmann and Natzi and just froze??? You didn't' read it in its full context.
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abradf2519
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Actually I find myself back pedaling a bit. If Ward Churchill wrote that crap on his own time and did not teach it to his students, then he should not be fired.

If he taught "ethnic studies" properly and only spewed this propaganda outside the class room, then he should not be fired.

Does anyone know if he taught this crap? Did he write the essay on his own time?
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Jim Miller
Feb 11 2005, 08:44 PM
"Remember, what I said earlier, those who always insult show only that they are an insulting person. "

I have it memorized Chris. Thanks

Sometimes our own words can bite us in the arse, eh?

I guess you got it. Enjoy the discussion. :)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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sylley2000
Feb 11 2005, 08:49 PM
He was not spewing propaganda. He was using an anology to illustrate that if the United States has a policy that attracts terrorist activity, that it will reap what it sews. Many of us here understood that ... you apparently do not!!!

Sylvia

That's like saying that a woman who wears revealing clothing invites date rape. I am sure you don't agree with that!

So based on this analogy, I do not understand.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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