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| What Kind Of People Are Teaching Our Children | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 31 2005, 11:11 PM (2,981 Views) | |
| abradf2519 | Feb 11 2005, 07:39 PM Post #136 |
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Member
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Ok, question time. Obviously some of you think that Ward Churchill should not loose his job. How many of you same people thought Judge Roy Moore should have lost his job because he displayed the 10 commandments in his court house? I think Judge Moore should NOT have been fired. I think he was NOT establishing a religion, I think he was doing his job very well, yet he was fired. If you agree, then you are avocating letting a professor who is doing a lousy job to keep his, and you are avocating firing a good judge because of a contraversal technicallity. So you are avocating screwing a good man, and supporting a bad man! Does this make sense?
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 11 2005, 07:41 PM Post #137 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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You agree with Goldberg, Cal? Good, then on essentials you have just agreed with me. You have insisted on parsing out of context that the prof called 9/11 victims Nazis. I have argued he did not call names and did not say Nazis. Goldberg: "When invited to another school to give a talk, it came out that he had written an essay comparing the civilian victims of 9/11 to "little Eichmanns."" Cal, comparison is the stuff of analogy, not name calling. Eichmann is not all Nazis (specific is not general). (Get that yet, Jim?) Cal, you also insist that he be fired for what he said. I have said he should not be fired for what he said but certainly be fired for breaking his tenure contract. Goldberg: "Hopefully — and, I think, probably — someone will find enough academic fraud to fire Churchill for cause." Cal, academic fraud would break his tenure contract. Glad, you agree. Now I can understand your anger, like Alan's. It is at least based on reality now. Back to your desire to limit free speech and academic freedom? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Feb 11 2005, 07:45 PM Post #138 |
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The judge broke the law and defied a court order, rightness or wrongness of his cause has no impact on those facts. Civil servants should be fired for breaking the law, even in the case of your judge. Show that Churchill broke the law and you can fire him. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 11 2005, 07:52 PM Post #139 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Gee, that's right, you used to be a teacher. Amazing. Did you make fun of students like you have made fun of members here? Don't answer--it's a loaded question. But we could have agreed on the following when I asked would your restrict his rights. Jim "Just how far does "free speech and academic freedom go? Certainly not that far." No, not that far. He can exercise academic freedom for as long as he does not breach his tenure contract and give the university just cause to fire him--as Goldberg pointed out. He can exercise free speech for as long as it breaks no law and harms no person. Your examples all cause harm. That is the essense of Mill's Harm Principle. Crossing that line is cause for firing, fines, even confinement. Indeed, with rights come responsibilities. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 11 2005, 07:56 PM Post #140 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Everything hinges on your assumption "he was NOT establishing a religion." He was establishing and denying free exercise. His actions ran counter to our Constitution and even "Moore" so his state constitution. Let's have that discussion elsewhere, please. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| abradf2519 | Feb 11 2005, 07:57 PM Post #141 |
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In my opinion, he did not break the law. The law in this case was twisted to make what he did illegal. Ward Churchill did not break the law, but I imagine that I could twist some law to arrest him. This, of course, would be wrong just as it was wrong to twist the law to get judge Moore. |
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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| corky52 | Feb 11 2005, 08:02 PM Post #142 |
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Ok so what are you saying? You want Chruchill's scalp in revenge for judge, that the courts are rigged, or what? Looks like an apples and oranges thing to me! |
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| bikemanb | Feb 11 2005, 08:04 PM Post #143 |
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Liberal Conservative
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How does a judge being in defiance of a legal court order compare with some guy spewing under his 1st Amendment right? I guess if you have an agenda it does. Moore of all people should have used the legal system to try and defeat those he disagrees with. Apples and Oranges. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 11 2005, 08:08 PM Post #144 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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"You want Chruchill's scalp in revenge for judge" Trade ya, prof's scalp for judge's. :deadhorse: |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| abradf2519 | Feb 11 2005, 08:08 PM Post #145 |
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Member
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Both are issues involving free speech. I don't want to argue the estabishment issue here, I am sure it was beaten to death somewhere else, but you must admit that judge Moore would not have been arrested and fired for this 20 years ago! To me, the same people who are supporting Churchill are the same ones happy that judge Moore lost his job. I was just wondering if these people realize that they are supporting a bad man and ruining a good man. |
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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| Jim Miller | Feb 11 2005, 08:12 PM Post #146 |
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"(Get that yet, Jim?)" Nope. All I know is what he said. 9/11 victims are little Eichmanns. Eichmann is a Nazi convicted of horrendous crimes. Calling the 9/11 victims a Nazi is not that far of a stretch. As an aside...you really don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you or sees things the same way as you do, eh? |
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Jim Pennsylvania in the Summer Florida in the Winter | |
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| bikemanb | Feb 11 2005, 08:12 PM Post #147 |
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Liberal Conservative
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Gee abrad, I am defending Churchill's right to free speech, not what he said. If you can't understand the difference I can't help that. Moore was supposed to be a lawman and he broke the law, as in defied a legal Court Order, you and I would not be able to get away with it so why should he. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Jim Miller | Feb 11 2005, 08:15 PM Post #148 |
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Again, I guess I have to ask. Does free speech have no limits? If so, help me out here. Does anything go disguised as academic freedom? |
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Jim Pennsylvania in the Summer Florida in the Winter | |
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| bikemanb | Feb 11 2005, 08:18 PM Post #149 |
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Liberal Conservative
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Riddle me this Jim, since none have answered:
What are you so afraid of, we had the courage to allow a Communist Party to exist and the Republic didn't fall. To answer your question: The courts say you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| abradf2519 | Feb 11 2005, 08:22 PM Post #150 |
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Member
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Ward Churchill has a RIGHT to say what he said. I am not agueing that. I just would rather see him saying those things (the inacuracies, bad analogies, and missuse of facts) OUTSIDE the college. IN the college he should have the acedemic freedom to say what he wants provided he is accurate, uses good analogies and uses facts correctly. Isn't this what we want them to teach our children to do? |
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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8:22 AM Jul 11