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Youth & Math
Topic Started: Jan 11 2005, 05:56 PM (261 Views)
Kate and Ed
Raleigh NC

Guess we are way off topic...but interesting.

Kate
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"Patriotism is easy to understand in America; it means looking out for yourself by looking out for your country."

Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the US
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Justine, I agree with your point as well, The basics need to be mastered by everyone, reading, writing and arithmetic--and for realistic situations as I think you suggest, solving basic business and consumer problems, measuring and calculating volumes, as well as reading about the world around them and then writing about it.

My point, actually, before I got carried away bragging, I suppose, was parents need to get involved with their kids, and as sebo says, with their schools.

But sebo is also correct in that school must apply those basics in ways that make you think for yourself, creatively, critically--ways that cannot truly be measured but are invaluable.


sebo, because it's college-level, a lot of it is proofs (oops, gave my secret away, learning proofs from an 18 year old).
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sebo
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BXL, Belgium - Urup
:P

yes, math in University isn't quite what anyone expects coming out of high school. You go from a very 'computational' calculus, where you crank numbers into formulas or whatever, to a more theoretical one. At first all my math courses seemed more like Greek than math :dunno:
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"Thinking must never submit itself, neither to a dogma, nor to a party, nor to a passion, nor to an interest, nor to a preconceived idea, nor to whatever it may be, if not to facts themselves, because, for it, to submit would be to cease to be." -Henri Poincaré-
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Justine
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Sebo, what can learn to learn by concentrating their learning in different directions. You obviously see the world through " math colored eyes" but what about the arts, are you as passionate about them, history, literature, etc. ?

We need to realize that most people are NOT good in everything, BUT, most people are good at SOMETHING!
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Math promotes creative and critical thinking, a profound basis for passion about art, literature, history, religion, etc. All people are capable of creative and critical thinking.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sebo
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BXL, Belgium - Urup
Justine,
I have a feeling that the arts, literature and history are more developed in high school than the math programs are. It is too often seen as something 'different' which you only need to know well if you're going to be dealing with economics, natural sciences or engineering later on. Where I went you could graduate without even taking math as a senior, but you had to take an art class. I don't mind, I love sculpture, but their priorities were a bit weird. I can understand that not everyone sees the beauty in math, but I'm disappointed by the low math standards in some educational systems.


That said, I value a good literature or debate class just as much as I would math on a high school level.
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"Thinking must never submit itself, neither to a dogma, nor to a party, nor to a passion, nor to an interest, nor to a preconceived idea, nor to whatever it may be, if not to facts themselves, because, for it, to submit would be to cease to be." -Henri Poincaré-
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tomdrobin
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The skill of counting back change is almost a lost skill. The young cashiers depend on the cash register telling them what the change should be after they have entered the $ recieved. I remember learning it on one of my first jobs. It wasn't taught in school.

One of my most enfluential college math teachers started the school year by writing down the sentence on the blackboard.
"Math is Fundamental", then he underlined the Fun in Fundamental. I still remember that, and although I don't use calculus for anything these days. I'm still honing math skills doing home projects at 62.
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august-alberta
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Colleen - Cold Lake Alberta
The course I'm teaching right now through Human Resources Canada is Youth Employment Skills. Its a 14 week program geared toward youth, aged 18 to 30 that are out of school and not employed.
I too find it amazing, that of the 14 students I have, (6 graduated with grade 12, the others all grade 9 or 10) none of them can perform basic mathematical skills. To boot, they can't even input the numbers on a calculator to reach an answer. I spent the better part of Friday and this morning teaching multiplication tables and the principals of division. I used my daughter's math text to do this. She's in grade 5.
For homework this evening, they're making up the multiplication tables from 1 through 10 so they can have them at the ready for the next 10 weeks.
My only question is, why? Why are these kids lacking in the most basic skills?
Even reading assignments are a chore for alot of the group. I made the mistake of having each student read a part of a passage in our manual. Many were so embarrased by their lack of reading skills that they wouldn't read out loud.
Again, these skills are (supposed to be) learned at a very early age. How did they make it through the school system year after year?
Colleen
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sebo
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BXL, Belgium - Urup
Colleen, I wouldn't be able to answer to that for I haven't been to an American school in the US. (My answer is probably a bit off the mark.) But the impression I'm getting from the media and my two cousins who are seniors over there is that parents have the right to say what their kids will be learning in school. One of my cousins is there for one year to learn english (after having done about two years in school here) and she says that she's the top student in her english class! Not only that, but she can't stop complaining about teachers doing the same exact thing class after class after class... they've done a semester of spanish and are still learning "hi how are you" in spanish.

She did a bit of investigating, and there were several teachers opposing the system saying that some of the kids came from "important" families and that the parents had the power to sue the school if kids did not get top grades!. It reminds me a bit of my high school days where you could get an A+ in everything by doing absolutely no studying if you limited yourself to the non-IB courses (i.e. American high school diploma). Over here getting an A+ even in high school is pretty extraordinary. The average in high school is where it should be (around 12-13 out of twenty) and the average in first year universities is at about 7-10 /20 depending on the department. When you're with a group of people getting an average of 35% you certainly don't whine when you get a 50!! :P

Then again, I understand the reason for these differences. Good universities in the US have a selection process requiring students to get top grades in high school, while those here accept everyone. We get 'filtered' the first two years :( It also allows high school to make it tough for students to prepare them for college, regardless of their grades.
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"Thinking must never submit itself, neither to a dogma, nor to a party, nor to a passion, nor to an interest, nor to a preconceived idea, nor to whatever it may be, if not to facts themselves, because, for it, to submit would be to cease to be." -Henri Poincaré-
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Justine
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Well Colleen there are several reasons I bet. One might be that serveral of those kids have learning disabilities that were never identified, especially to ones who cannot even enter the problems into a calculator, sequencing information to do basic calculations is a problem my son has, it is an easy learning dis. to overlook.
Also for the 6 kids that have their grade 12 I wonder how many of them actually took and passed grade 11 or 12 math ( regualr not modified) remember the requirements for grade 12 have changed over the last 5 years, so some of your "graduates" may in fact barely have " high school level math".

Also, and one of my points, is some kids are pushed through higher level math classes just to get the class, they have not even mastered the basics!!

As for the ones in your courses with poor reading skills, have pity on them. It's a case of what came first the chicken or the egg. If one is struggling in school, if reading and basic math are difficult, and you are not getting the help needed , at a young enough age to really make a difference( and trust me what 16 yr old wants to go to the " special help" room) then why would you continue in school? They start to act " tough" and like they don't care , but it's because they do care, they don't want to be the " dummy " in classes, so they quit, or they just scrape by and don't ask for help, and some teachers just give up on them , and pass them along.To be fair to the teachers, some of them do end of with classes or 35 kids, of whom ( in our school district anyways) 4or 5 are ESL( english second lang.) and 4 or 5 with learning disabilities, that makes it very difficult to teach, plus, with cut backs the kids who are designated LD get less and less aide time assigned to them, my son is designated LD and gets about 2 hours a week of aide time( this is not one on one, this is time the school is entitled to an aide based on his des. they will use it to split between 4 or 5 kids. some of whom may not get " time" but need the help anyways)

So, is it the system failing the kids, or the kids failing the system, I do know that it often comes down to money.

Many school districts do not have enough money to help the kids when they are young, and by the time they are in the teen years it ;s too late. Of course , society still pays, just further down the line with unemployment programs, welfare, and the like.

Solutions? Nope, I don't have any, but I do realize partly how complicated the problems are.
I wish we had a system like Britain where kids can stream off in grade 9 or 10 into a hisgh school program that is trades orientated or academic( geared towards those goin gon into university or college)
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Kate and Ed
Raleigh NC
Justine
Jan 18 2005, 11:29 AM

I wish we had a system like Britain where kids can stream off in grade 9 or 10 into a high school program that is trades orientated or academic( geared towards those goin gon into university or college)



We have what's called a Pathways program in high schools here. It doesn't go far enough, as you said to introduce trades, but it does help students and parents get their minds around what realistic goals are for individual kids. If I look at school system planning curriculum guide through high schools it has lots of classes that would be helpful but it is a misleading because they are not actually offered in high schools, just listed as a possibility. Trades, socialization, basic Math for the workplace, etc. Some of the non-credit courses at community colleges give more help in these areas than mandatory school...this is unfortunate because its doubtful the kids that need it most will reach out after making it through high school (probably like the cashier from orig thread).

How do they get through school without it? D is passing...a D to me is saying "experiencing difficulty" red flag, red flag. But in public schools time and resources are strained. One of our boys attended a private school where this same grade was put this way...requiring additional time and/or support;experiencing difficulty. This student would not be moved on until additional time and support had allowed them to learn and pass difficulty hurdle.

JMO,

:blah: Kate
of Kate and Ed Posted Image

"Patriotism is easy to understand in America; it means looking out for yourself by looking out for your country."

Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the US
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Not everyone can be taught mathematics. Learning styles often dictate a person's capability.

I for one, just cannot absorb mathematics--my mind just cannot get around the concepts. Science too presents a world of mystery that I just cannot master. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with the arts and in fact, excel in subjects such as history, geography, and english. My hubby is my counterpart--he excels in the sciences.

He's right-brained, I'm left. Those genes are inherited. Within those genes are other learning difficulties -- my granddaughter learns best by audio.

We just have to take what we're given and make the most of it. It really helps if parents are able to identify their children's learning styles and inform their teachers.

Trying to teach me alegebra is just a waste of time. I'll never get IT!!! But I can and did absorb rapid calculation arithmetic. It's important that there aren't sweeping generalties made about education. There is room for lots of subjects.

Writers and artists are components of society just as valuable as scientists. They all thinking differently and contribute their talents.

So if someone can't calculate change as an adult is that really such a big deal...let them use a calculator--they might be a budding Shakespeare? :floorrollin: :floorrollin: I'd count my change carefully if Shakespeare was the day's cashier! IMHO he is about as far left as the genes can go! Wonder if he had to use his fingers to count to 10? We don't hear much about that side of him.

Sylvia
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sebo
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BXL, Belgium - Urup
Sylvia,
Quote:
 
So if someone can't calculate change as an adult is that really such a big deal...let them use a calculator--they might be a budding Shakespeare?


I agree, let them use as much as they can as long as they do it well.

However, this seems to be becoming fairly popular in high schools and universities as well. Students are starting to learn how to plot function with graphic calculators without grasping what a function is, or what a graph represents. The problem is that even the students who are math-oriented are not getting a proper basis. (I know it doesn't have much to do with this thread but I want to talk about it here while we're on the subject...)

My friends that have gone to the US for college who are in egineering are not doing any math theory whatsoever... most of them are just learning straight off how to solve complex problems using appropriate programs. That means they can be great engineers but won't have a clue WHY they do what they do.

I totally agree that technology should be an aid to everyone, but the impression that I'm getting is that we will soon be lacking the people that "understand" everything. We will be left with the people that can "exploit".

I don't know if it makes any sense... just a random thought of mine

:P
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"Thinking must never submit itself, neither to a dogma, nor to a party, nor to a passion, nor to an interest, nor to a preconceived idea, nor to whatever it may be, if not to facts themselves, because, for it, to submit would be to cease to be." -Henri Poincaré-
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Sebo, I'm following your logic. I had meant that people who cannot absorb arithmetic should not be condemned for using mechanical or electrical devices that do the work for them. Those that can learn, deserve to be taught how to do it starting with long division and expanding into algebra and mathematics that is far beyond my scope.

I do try things and am capable of wiring a house--have done it three times. And know quite a bit about plumbing and grasp that water doesn't easily run uphill. :floorrollin: :floorrollin: My hubby can literally do 'everything' to build a house, a boat, an RV -- you name it--if he doesn't know how, he would quickly find out how to do it. Along the way, he imparts some of his knowledge to me at much lesser degree of skill. I'm the painter and gardener--those are my exclusive tasks. We would be capable of more than surviving on a desert island if shipwrecked. He doesn't try to teach me math because he's knows I'd ask stupid questions like, "Who cares that some numbers are prime and other numbers aren't?" :floorrollin: :floorrollin:

I don't think you have to worry Sebo. Those that are gifted in the sciences will seek out the hard way of doing things. Gifted students have no shortage of curiosity and imagination. Mostly they just need to be pointed in the right direction and then stand back and keep out of their way. Your friends that don't seek knowledge in the American system, will not be great engineers--they don't have the capacity if they accept second-class educations. They'll go to their classes, do the minimum work to pass and spend their leisure time in the pubs. They are not scholars. No one is robbing them -- they do this to themselves.

At the University level, it is anticipated that students know how to research and ask questions. They have been taught how to think, not what to think by the age of graduation from high school. If not, it is probably too late for them to acquire it unless they have a yen to teach themselves. There are late bloomers who do this.

I have more confidence in the individual than I do in any system of education.

Sylvia



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