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Our Wonderful Saudi Friends!; With friends like these..........
Topic Started: Nov 7 2004, 05:10 AM (272 Views)
tomdrobin
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cmoehle
Nov 8 2004, 02:16 AM
That is true. Ask Bush the father why he did not take Baghdad, or ask Schwarzkopf.

I've read it was the threat of Saddam unleashing the now supposedly non existant WMD. In hindsight it probably would have been a good idea, the curds and sheits that revolted against Saddam would have appreciated it.
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BuddyIAm
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Tom says

the curds and sheits that revolted against Saddam would have appreciated it


Buddy says>

The Kurds and Shi’as were going to fight for independence. Not a unified Iraq. Bush Sr. could not have allowed that. He knew that would end up being a un-winnable war.

Bush Jr. should have listened.

The reason we can’t get peace in Iraq now is largely because of this resistance of each group, to giving up power to the other.

Out of the mouths of our own troops.

‘We are not killing terrorists. We are killing poor people with guns.’
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Schwarzkopf, It Doesn't Take a Hero, p 498, provides three reasons. One, the coalition they had worked so hard to preserve would have fractured, leaving likely only the US and Britain. Two, under Geneva and Hague Conventions we would have been considered occupying powers and responsible for all cost of restoration. Three, it would have turned the Arab world, especially those who had fought side-by-side with us, against us.

"For once", he concludes, "we were strategically smart enough to win the war and the peace."

Not a word on WMD. I do not recall them ever mentioned at that time other than the rockets possibly laden with chemicals. Remember, as Cheney said, the grave threat was the nexus of WMD and terrorist ties, which as you say were not active on the one hand and not operative on the other.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
chris
so what changed between bush sr and bush jr?
(I'm assuming bush jr doesn't open his mouth without talking to his daddy first)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Neoconservatism. Most believe Bush Sr lost his bid for a second term because he broke his read-my-lips promise, turning Republicans against him. That's part of it, but the whole story involves neocons upset he hadn't taken Bahgdad on the road to fulfilling their vision of global economic imperialism. They turned on him hoping they could appeal better to Clinton, who was too cautious, and had to wait for the impulsive Bush Jr. You can see some of this history in statements and letters on the PNAC site--pay close attention to signatories and the roles they have played in Bush's presidency. Most of the same appear in an excellent, broad-stroked overview documentary on the subject PBS did about 2.5 years ago: War Behind Closed Doors: Evolution of the Bush Doctrine.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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BuddyIAm
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Chris.

Do you have an opinion as to why the PNAC doctrine was not aired out to the public?

It certainly wasn’t for the lack of interviews with it’s members.

Why weren’t the letters to Clinton printed?
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
But they are and have been publicly available. The Wolfowitz, I mean Pearle, no, darn, the Bush Doctrine was published publicly. I forget the dates. A little bit of research would show discussion of this from the think tanks and political journals.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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BuddyIAm
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Chris

I understand that they were available.

But they were not revealed and discussed on the news. It seemed the Swiftboat crisis and the National guard problems were of greater concern to the news services..
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Oh, why weren't they discussed during the campains. Old news best left swept under the run of history? Just not sensational enough? Takes time to get your mind wrapped around it?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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BuddyIAm
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Chris says:

Just not sensational enough?


Buddy says:

I found them quite titillating. :)
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Here is an interesting analysis by another think tank on the The Waning Influence of Neo-Conservative Strategists that may explain the lack of concern.

Quote:
 
rought to power through the inauguration of the Bush administration, a group of individuals who pursued neo-conservative ideology managed to institute their policy directives during the window of opportunity created after the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington. The central goal of this neo-conservative faction was, and remains, to sustain the U.S. as the unchallenged superpower in the world, capable of launching military strikes against any states or groups that threaten this status.

Following the September 11 attacks, neo-conservative rhetoric was attractive to the American people, in addition to the leaders of the Bush administration, since the faction labeled the U.S. as a symbol of "freedom" and "democracy." According to neo-conservatives, these Wilsonian axioms awarded the United States the right and obligation to foster the conditions that would lead to a democratic renewal in the Middle East. More importantly, these figures portrayed their posturing as a strategy that would preserve U.S. power in the world while, at the same time, greatly weakening the threat posed by Islamic revolutionaries. Indeed, the argument was that the protection of the United States was directly tied to the level of democracy in the world, and, primarily, in the Middle East.

...In the aftermath of the first major execution of neo-conservative strategy, that of the preemptive war in Iraq, it has become perfectly clear that the central goals of the neo-conservative faction are deeply flawed. Not only has the outcome of the Iraq intervention resulted in the exact opposite of the faction's predicted scenarios, but it has done so in almost every way.

...The negative results of neo-conservative policy explain why its influence in Washington has waned, and the further perpetuation of the faction's policies seems unlikely. Indeed, up until the dismal situation in Iraq became evident, neo-conservatives such as Wolfowitz and Pentagon adviser Richard Perle were seen as leading and outspoken members and influencers of the Bush administration. Now, they have been effectively silenced....


He leaves it open as to whether it is a lasting silence.

He sees Powell's rise to power as following on that silence, however, rumors also have it that Powell, Ashcroft May Be Axed In Reshuffle.

Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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