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Our Wonderful Saudi Friends!; With friends like these..........
Topic Started: Nov 7 2004, 05:10 AM (271 Views)
corky52
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6424031/

Like I've said before, GWB has a lousy sense of direction, 15 of 19 and now this!
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bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
But then some people don't read, have no curouisity in things and no sense of history or culture or geography.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Part of that curiousity needs to include the fact Islam is so decentralized that 26 scholars making this announcement has less affect than 26 professors proclaiming support for Bush in the last election.

However, the fact this comes out of Saudi Arabia belies the notion Iraq was the best place to select as a supposed strategic front from which to spread liberal democracy across the Middle East. The enemy did afterall come from Saudi Arabia and not Iraq. It would have been a better two birds to kill with one stone.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
an attack on saudi arabia would bring the entire weight of islam against us...so we can only 'control' them through the royal family....but that's a teeter totter thing because the royal family has to outwardly kowtow to the islamic imans or get their heads chopped off.
and the islamic imans of saudi arabia, being good politicians that they are, play both sides of the field.
the name of the game, in saudi arabian power circles, is "staying alive".
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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BuddyIAm
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Member
Chris says:

Part of that curiousity needs to include the fact Islam is so decentralized that 26 scholars making this announcement has less affect than 26 professors proclaiming support for Bush in the last election.

Buddy says:

The most vocal in the American religious movement during the past election. Were not the established religious community. But rather, religious misfits.

Those in the Catholic faith that spoke out against Kerry. Took a stand against the wishes of the church.

Robertson, Graham and the thousands of supposed ordained preachers in America. Those that have a church in the local office complex in building 1 suite 12. Become the squeaky wheel. Not a single one having the same beliefs. Not one who could agree with another on the interpretation of the Bible. But to a man using GOD as the carrot, to effect a new government, to change the constitution and the laws..

You have argued that it was those of faith that tipped the election in Bush’s favor. So they must have political desires and power.

All the bad associated with the Taliban, apply like a sticky note, to America’s misfits, during the past election.

So what you say about the Islamic faith being decentralized. Would seem to apply to the religious groups of America.

Religion in America has morphed into a political machine. So has Islam.

Maybe it is these religious leaders that seek political power, that have become the anti Christ.
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
For what it's worth, whatever antichrist is, that is true, imo. Mixing religion and government--religion using government as you say or government using religion as the Saudis do--is not a good thing. That is not the same as saying those who are religious should not be in or involved in government, since, given that government ought to be of by and for the people, that is generally a good thing.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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BuddyIAm
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Posted Image
"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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tomdrobin
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BuddyIAm
Nov 7 2004, 06:43 PM
Maybe it is these religious leaders that seek political power, that have become the anti Christ.

Wow! That is a profound thought. I think your on to something buddy.
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tomdrobin
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cmoehle
Nov 7 2004, 03:23 PM
However, the fact this comes out of Saudi Arabia belies the notion Iraq was the best place to select as a supposed strategic front from which to spread liberal democracy across the Middle East. The enemy did afterall come from Saudi Arabia and not Iraq. It would have been a better two birds to kill with one stone.

An invasion of Saudi Arabia would have had devastating effects on our ability to get the oil we need, and violate commitments we have made to them. If the people of Islam are upset with us for meddling in Iraq, just think of the furor that would have developed over invasion of the country that contains there 2 most holy places. IMO democratizing Iraq was an indirect way of getting at Saudi Arabia'a autocratic society. Unfortunately so far that process has been much more difficult than planners had originally thought.
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tomdrobin
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corky52
Nov 7 2004, 11:10 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6424031/

Like I've said before, GWB has a lousy sense of direction, 15 of 19 and now this!

Corky
The Saudis aren't the problem. The clerics are. They are the real enemy we should be trying to "nuetralize". Notice I didn't say kill, because that would only incite more of the same. We need to find a way to discredit them. Perhaps democracy might help.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
tomdrobin
Nov 7 2004, 06:59 PM
cmoehle
Nov 7 2004, 03:23 PM
However, the fact this comes out of Saudi Arabia belies the notion Iraq was the best place to select as a supposed strategic front from which to spread liberal democracy across the Middle East. The enemy did afterall come from Saudi Arabia and not Iraq. It would have been a better two birds to kill with one stone.

An invasion of Saudi Arabia would have had devastating effects on our ability to get the oil we need, and violate commitments we have made to them. If the people of Islam are upset with us for meddling in Iraq, just think of the furor that would have developed over invasion of the country that contains there 2 most holy places. IMO democratizing Iraq was an indirect way of getting at Saudi Arabia'a autocratic society. Unfortunately so far that process has been much more difficult than planners had originally thought.

And, Tom, you just presented a reasonable argument against invading Iraq.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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tomdrobin
Member
cmoehle
Nov 8 2004, 01:07 AM
And, Tom, you just presented a reasonable argument against invading Iraq.

Chris
The reasonable argument against the invasion would have been the difficulty. The amount of difficulty was an unknown at the time the decision was made IMO. So could not be factored in to the criticism of the decision. I think the decision may not have been researched significantly, and the assumption was the Iraqi people would welcome us as liberators and embrace democracy. Much of this information was obtained from the Iraqi opposition, which it would appear gave us some misleading information.

Now the concept of democracy for Iraq was right then and is right now. So their can be no reasonable argument against democracy for Iraq, just in the means to obtain that end.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
The administration was warned it would be difficult but chose not to listen. I recall Powell actually several times asked what would happen if shock and awe did not win the war and he would pause and say if we had to fight it out in the streets it would be extremely difficult--my paraphrase.

Democracy in Iraq or Saudi Arabia would I agree be in our best interests. But the goal is, as Sowell would say, unconstrained and, as any traditional conservative would say, liberal.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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BuddyIAm
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Tom says:

Now the concept of democracy for Iraq was right then and is right now. So their can be no reasonable argument against democracy for Iraq, just in the means to obtain that end.

Buddy says:


In Four months Iraq has gone from occupied nation, to a supposed democracy, to a dictatorship operating under military rule.

What’s the next plan. A chicken in every pot and a Cadillac in every garage?

This fiasco was doomed. It’s outcome predicted. A decade ago.

There was no peace in V.N. until we left. There will be no peace in Iraq until we go either.


"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity."
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
That is true. Ask Bush the father why he did not take Baghdad, or ask Schwarzkopf.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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