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Ralph Klein's Last Election
Topic Started: Nov 5 2004, 02:01 PM (846 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Sorry to divert but I need some groundwork to be able to tag along in a discussion of Canadian politics.

No need to attach labels, even though it's a habit, for if we speak to policies none actually fit down here either, which was part of my long-winded point. One final groundwork observation, it seems perhaps they denote actually very little, but because you all have institutionalized your labels as names (of parties) they do not carry as much connotations as down here.

Back to topic, then.

Since politicians rarely carry out promises why would anyone raise an eyebrow at Ralph's promising little, or is it just pundits grasping at straws.

With everyone primping for the position of Premier, it seems the election really is about that and little else. That seems to be part of the theme of this thread.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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jackd
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Brewster: Sylvia said:
Quote:
 
There still remains a way to hear the western provinces in the federal parliament. It's a very sore point among western provinces. An answer to that dilemma needs to be found.

Isn't true to say Alberta feels (for valid reasons or not) it does not have enough influence/power on the federal government as compared to other provinces i.e: Ontario, Quebec and BC.
Although not a perfect parallel, I sometime see Alberta as a maturing teenager, suddenly realizing he has some solid ideas and realizations behind him, pockets full of money, but feels he his treated unfairly by other members of the family as he can not, due to its small size (representation in Ottawa) win his point over those who are bigger and have more authority (Ontario/Quebec/BC) due to their larger size (number of seats in Ottawa).
Klein has succeeded (up to a point) at shaking the Ottawa's cage on some issues but his does not seem to have much effect on the "western alienation" syndrome.
With the current very unequal provincial representation in Ottawa, small provinces (population wise) will rarely win any major battles with Ottawa.
To me, it agains demonstrate something is fundamentally wrong with the confederation. Real workable solutions are not easy to find....and implement.
Any idea?
JackD
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Walk behind me, I lead you
Walk beside me, you are a friend.
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brewster
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
Can't argue with anything you said, Jack. I have ideas, but it'll take a bit of work, and all of them depend on either the Ottawa Liberals willingly giving up part of their power, or Finally making Quebec realize that their interests are best represented by the Conservatives under Steven Harper, a staunch supporter of Provincial Rights.

Since neither seems likely at the moment, I have time to mull it over a bit.
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brewster
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Chris;

One last point on the Labels thing....

I probably misled you in my attempt to show how the Mainstream Canadian Parties differ from their US Counterparts. In the process, I minimized the essential differences. As someone once said, "The Devil is in the Details".

First off, to put the differences in the terminology you have tried to instill in our heads:

Although both parties have similar objectives on many issues,

The Conservatives would try to achieve those ends in a "Constrained" manner, if possible.

The Liberals would lean toward the "Unconstrained" model.

But when applying the basic labels, I think it would be better to think of the labels in a 19th century manner.

The Conservatives are trying to conserve the original vision of our Founding Fathers and the BNA Act that Canada should be a Federation of Provinces.

The Liberals want change the original concept, to move Canada toward a new, Centralized Republic.

Both of these developments are relatively new, in just the last few decades. Canadians before the days of Trudeau, and even many now, would not recognize what has happened.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Distill? I'm not the winemaker! I run no still. :tiphat:

So is this election about who will take if not fill Ralph's shoes?

Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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brewster
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Chris:

Quote:
 
Since politicians rarely carry out promises why would anyone raise an eyebrow at Ralph's promising little


Unfortunately, Ralph is one politician that DOES carry out his promises. It is the REAL source of his popularity/Sainthood. Hence the problem in the Original Post. He can't even muse out loud without raising expectations.

And yes, this election is very much about who will step forward... Since Ralph is saying little, I expect the leading contenders to come forward with Platform Promises... After all. they can say anything up until Ralph actually resigns, so this is their big chance to state their positions.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
"Ralph is one politician that DOES carry out his promises."

Whoa! Even if I disagreed with his promises, which I doubt, I would have to admire that singularity. If the US only had someone like that!

So will he select someone or let them or the voters decide? (Parallels, not to get off topic, with Arafat.)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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brewster
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No Ralph doesn't get to select a successor. Once he formally announces his Retirement, the party will hold a Convention...

He might support someone, but I doubt it, and nobody's bound by his recommendation anyway.

By the way, Political Conventions up here are very similar to the ones in the US, except we don't have primaries.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Yes, meant in a support or endorse sort of gesture. Which would from all you say carry great weight. In a way, I would see his not saying anything true to the conservative and even constrained spirit he seems to represent.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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august-alberta
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Colleen - Cold Lake Alberta
brewster
Nov 6 2004, 01:05 PM
No Ralph doesn't get to select a successor. Once he formally announces his Retirement, the party will hold a Convention...

He might support someone, but I doubt it, and nobody's bound by his recommendation anyway.

By the way, Political Conventions up here are very similar to the ones in the US, except we don't have primaries.

Have you anyone in mind that you think could fill Uncle Ralph's boots Bruce? Only ones worth mentioning, to me are Gary Mar from health, Shirley McClellan from Agriculture or even as a stretch, Oberg from education. I have my doubts about all of them. I wonder if Bill Smith will throw his hat into the provincial ring? :dunno:
Colleen
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
Personally, I think you oughta encourage some carpet-bagger from BC, to make up for us having Stinkwell Gay thrust upon us.....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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brewster
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Colleen;

I agree that it's hard to see a strong Candidate to fill Ralph's shoes. I think it's a problem that comes for any party that has a strong leader - it's difficult for anyone else to shine.

The Prime Choices I see:

Shirley McLellan, as you say. She's Deputy Premier already, and it would have a fairly easy transition.

Gary Mar would have been the leading candidate before his minor scandal a few weeks ago. Honesty and trust aren't much of an issue for the Federal Liberals, but I don't think it's gonna fly here.

Halvar Jonson has to be considered - his experience as Intergovernmental Affairs with Ottawa would definitely be an asset.

Ted Morton would be an outside "Carpetbagger" who might have a chance - he worked on the Provincial Firewall document with Stephen Harper, and if Albertans want to get on Ottawa's case, he's the man. He was recently courted by the Alberta Alliance Party, but turned them down as too extremist, and that could get him a few votes.

But it's really too early to call...
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brewster
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Quote:
 
Separation Party of Alberta leaders admit it's not easy

'I don't think I'm that scary,' says new party leader
 
Kerry Williamson
Calgary Herald

November 7, 2004


One year ago, they met in the bowels of a Calgary motel, their leader preaching fire and brimstone.

It was the height of separation mania, circa 2003. Kyoto, the Canadian Wheat Board and the gun registry had Albertans fired up -- and talk of leaving Confederation was all the rage.

But at the Separation Party of Alberta meeting, there were more empty chairs than full.

"It is hard. My God, man, we've been referred to as sheet-wearing, gun-toting rednecks," says Bruce Hutton, leader of the separatists.

"But when I talk to people, they don't think I'm a sheet-wearing, gun-toting redneck.

"I don't think I'm that scary. We just have to stay the course. We just have to get our message out there."

It's a tough row to hoe being a separatist in Alberta.

The party -- which in June became the only separatist group to obtain official party status in Alberta -- believes it will win seats in the upcoming provincial election. Hutton says that by 2010 separatists will be running the show.

Donna Ferolie, the party's Calgary-based president, is confident of winning at least one seat, maybe two, and perhaps three on Nov. 22.

"All we are trying to do is protect Alberta's interests," said Ferolie, who ran federally for the Reform Party in northern Ontario in 1997.

"I predict that within the next five years we are going to be a force to be reckoned with."

They make no bones about their ambition -- if they win, they will fight to take Alberta out of Canada.


Another group just waiting for Federalist Ralphie to leave...
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wolfgoddess
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I am totaly NOT into politics but, I will say that I feel the people here in Calgary anyway may bitch and complain, but they are afraid of change as I see it. :dunno: I scratch my head when it comes to election time as the same person is usually back in anyway so why waste the money. So daft....
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Wolfgoddess, you're so cynical. Isn't that what politics is all about for us poor insignificant citizens, bitchin' and complainin' about what the other guy needs to do to make things better?


Bruce, we've got plenty separatists like that down here on the far right, a lot of them phony ex-libs from the 60s still trying to find a weatherman to tell them which way the wind blows, and they will quote you Madison night and day, forgetting he was a Federalist, the one most responsible for framing a strong central government.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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