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| The Right To Be Stupid?; Do you believe in this right? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 26 2004, 01:32 PM (438 Views) | |
| corky52 | Oct 26 2004, 06:06 PM Post #31 |
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Jackd, Is what you do done under force of law or force of persuasion? Have you ever really stopped an intent addict? Are you violating the young mens free will, or simply showing them a better way. |
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| jackd | Oct 26 2004, 06:23 PM Post #32 |
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Corky: I've seen cases were we actually physically forced, against their will, kids who were in such bad shape they were to die within the next few hours. When you see a young 17 years old kid in a back alley dressed with his shorts and a t-shirt when the temperature is -20F, bleeding from his 2 arms from shooting himself with contaminated needles, so high on drugs that his only concern is to trip as high as he can, alone, until he freeze to death, you don't ask him if we wrinkle his own little civil right while he fights back with us. You physically force him to get into the car and to the the shelter. Those with "the force of law" (called cops) would generally not bother to get out of their patrol cars (some would) until it is too late. Persuasion is the next step. JackD |
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Walk in front of me, you lead me, Walk behind me, I lead you Walk beside me, you are a friend. | |
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| corky52 | Oct 26 2004, 06:28 PM Post #33 |
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jackd, Was the choice to get high or to die? I've also done a bit of work in this area and I've yet to see anyone stopped who didn't want to be stopped. Would you be willing to lock someone up in perpetuity to keep them alive? |
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| jackd | Oct 26 2004, 06:37 PM Post #34 |
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The choice was to get high, the consequences were to die.
Nope. We try to convince, to persuade, to change the attitude, to bring back the desire to be somebody. If we fail (and we have in some cases), we are not babysitters for the rest of their lives. We're ready to help a lot, if they help themselves a bit. JackD |
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Walk in front of me, you lead me, Walk behind me, I lead you Walk beside me, you are a friend. | |
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| corky52 | Oct 26 2004, 06:44 PM Post #35 |
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jackd, So in the end if they chose to be stupid you'll allow them that right. Dry them out, show them a way, offer help and support, but in the end they have to choose. |
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| jackd | Oct 26 2004, 07:00 PM Post #36 |
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Obviously yes, but not without us fighting as hard as we can to change the outcome. When someone is halfway between the bridge guard rail and the river, there's not much we can do about it. jackD |
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Walk in front of me, you lead me, Walk behind me, I lead you Walk beside me, you are a friend. | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 26 2004, 08:25 PM Post #37 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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My position is better stated by what is now known as the Harm Principle from John Stuart Mill's On Liberty
Reading over the many replies, especially Jack's very real experiences and others' with suicide, I would caveat that with this right to liberty belongs only to those who are free which responsibility requires mature and sound reasoning. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| jackd | Oct 26 2004, 08:31 PM Post #38 |
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Very good Chris but:....which young drug addicts in a crisis aren't. Jackd |
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Walk in front of me, you lead me, Walk behind me, I lead you Walk beside me, you are a friend. | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 26 2004, 09:22 PM Post #39 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Exactly, Jack, they aren't. Perhaps suicidal people aren't either. I was also thinking of my 17th year old son who naturally welcomes freedom with open arms but doesn't always embrace its companion responsibility. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Oct 26 2004, 09:30 PM Post #40 |
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So suicide makes you irrational and therefor undeserving of freedom? Sound kind of soviet to me, criminals are insane for violating the laws. |
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| TexasShadow | Oct 26 2004, 10:41 PM Post #41 |
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Jane
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Corky suicide can be an irrational act of desperation...or it can be a well reasoned act of rejection of the hand that's been dealt to you... or it can be plain and simple weariness of a life of pain and misery. drugs can make a person irrational. desperate situations can make a person irrational. Many suicide attempts are cries for help..shall we ignore them? But that wasn't your original question. Does a person have the right to lead a life that will most likely put him in an early grave? The answer is no...no one has the moral/ethical right to do such a thing...if it will hurt other people...and it usually does. But you'd have to lock up half the world to keep people from living risky lives. |
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| august-alberta | Oct 26 2004, 11:10 PM Post #42 |
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Colleen - Cold Lake Alberta
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Thanks for putting that more into perspective for me Jane. I just couldn't see where you were going at first as any and every act that any or everyone does affects someone else at sometime or another. How people react to other's decisions is where the whole "feelings" and "hurt" thing is disturbing to me. What you feel hurts you may not affect me in the same manner. I'm not speaking of "mental abuse" as this should be well understood. So I agree. We would have to lock up every person on the face of the earth to stop from getting emotionally hurt. I don't think any of us disagree with physically hurting another being being wrong. |
Colleen
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| jrf | Oct 27 2004, 01:35 AM Post #43 |
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There is a point where as individuals minding ones' own business has to be overcome by our duty to family and friend and neighbor. Yes we have duties. We have to respect others, but they in turn must respect us. To refuse assistance is their call. To proceed is ours. It comes down to asking "what can I live with as far as my own actions" NOT what will my family, friend or neighbor allow. Do what one must according to one's self. Ask forgiveness later. I can then live with the outcome. Thanks for the question, it allowed me to prepare in advance, to get as much possible straight in my mind. |
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| cmoehle | Oct 27 2004, 04:45 AM Post #44 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Corky, I don't know in the case of suicide. But a drugged up person stealing others or selling self for a fix is hardly acting reasonably or responsibly. And I know my son does not always do so--the recent SCOTUS case on juvenile death penalty raised the fact teenagers just have not pyhsically developed that part of their brain to look at the future and understand consequences fully. On the other hand I don't buy this talk of feelings. The Harm Principle I spoke of imo would not extend to feelings of hurt or imagined wrongs. The former tends, imo, to be based on selfishness, others concerned more for their own good than yours. The latter is seen in the argument you criticised the US, I am a US citizen, therefore you criticised me, or you criticised Bush, I support Bush, therefore you criticised me--imagined harm. IOW, the harm must be real. Something society would recognize as such, something a jury of peers would judge harmful. Family, friends and neighbors gets into something else altogether. I think there you implicitly or explicitly make social contracts with people that oblige you to additional responsibilities. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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