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| Proof Of Quagmire In Iraq | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 26 2004, 06:02 AM (572 Views) | |
| teryt | Oct 26 2004, 02:54 PM Post #16 |
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I know you're trying to add balance here, but that seems to be difficult. It is human negotiating nature to try & defend your position when attacked. Many are thowing stuff at the president's motives & the current results of the war. But, there is more than one perspective here, so we feel compelled to defend. If I thought it prudent, I would love to go over & see for myself. (actually entertained the idea of doing consulting and/or volunteer work there) Those of us back hear listen to a bunch of 2nd hand info, much of it biased. Doing the Iraq thing is tuff work, but if it's pulled off will be an amazing seed planted in the Arab world. Risks? Yeah, maybe on or two. :laugh: |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 26 2004, 05:47 PM Post #17 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Tery, rather than me assuming anything, answer these questions. 1) How do you define negotiation? I wouldn't define forum discussion as that. But perhaps you have some speciallized, intellectual meaning in mind. 2) When you say "defend your position when attacked" are you implying that you personally were attacked? If so that should be reported to me or a moderator. Please explain. 3) Can you give a rough estimate of the numeric value you give "many"? Lucky if 20 or so people post here a day. Many? 4) If a bunch of what you hear is suspect, how do you sort truth from fiction? Is that not instead of negotiation a purpose of a public forum? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| jrf | Oct 26 2004, 06:10 PM Post #18 |
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I gave a near link out before. try this for a little info. http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/iraq/iraq.htm check out Gulf Region Division |
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| Justine | Oct 26 2004, 07:11 PM Post #19 |
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Regardless of why you guys went over there, you should now get the heck out. Do you like your sons and daughters dying over there(I am sure you do not)nothing has gotten better over there( opinion, just based on American tv news reports that we watch.) You have Saddam , now get out and let the chips fall where they may. They have no " weapons if mass destruction" so you ( as a nation) are no more at danger from them then you are probaly from a 1/2 dozen other countries that have exstremists and terroists in them. I only say this because every night on the news it tells us how many more have died but it just does not look like "you" have settled anything down over there. Give up and let them destroy themselves , you can't save every nation ,but there are serveral others that need your attention. |
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| jrf | Oct 26 2004, 07:24 PM Post #20 |
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I like this one http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/news/posterseries/18SEP04.pdf its 4 meg |
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| DanielDenali | Oct 26 2004, 07:41 PM Post #21 |
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So what you are saying is it's o.k to make an argument for war that has been shown to be untrue? Is this part of what makes the truth so unimportant to so many? 1+1 = whatever you want it to? To me 1+1 =2 If I said it was 4 then said it was 3 not many would look to me for math lessons. Essentially that is what the U.S has done. Now when the time comes for the support of other nations they will only remember the huge error we made regarding the facts used to make a case for war. This is why the truth is so important. In this case there is only one truth, we were wrong. |
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| cmoehle | Oct 26 2004, 08:02 PM Post #22 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Justine, While I agree with some of what you say regarding justifications for going, I do not for leaving. There is plenty bad played up in the press, but plenty good if you take the time to find it. From my perspective there are a few hotbeds of insurrection of those rejecting our occupation and struggling for political power, and who do the same against the few foreign fighters and terrorists there now. The majority of the country is fairly safe--the Kurds are simply going about the democratic (parliametary) business as they have for years. But we have created a situation by removing the lynchpin of tyrannical oppression (we once supported) for the lynchpin of liberal democracy. Pull it out and all hell could break loose first in civil then in national war as long ago Western boundaries come apart at the seams, and then terrorism will finally arrive on that so-called front in the Terror War. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| tomdrobin | Oct 26 2004, 08:35 PM Post #23 |
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Finally someone who really understands the motivations. Instead of the "they lied and had ulterior motives rant ". Well put.
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| jrf | Oct 26 2004, 08:58 PM Post #24 |
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It would sure be bad to say Oops! Never mind. And go home leaving their world in a worse mess. I wonder how many think we are making a sincere effort to stabilize Iraq, establish an economy and do good deeds versus make a show for appeasement purposes prior to withdrawing and leaving them to their own devices doomed to failure. There's a lot of good souls placing their lives on the line for the betterment of Iraq. I imagine a lot of Iraqis are dying for their dreams. Or are they simply misguided or have no choice. Is it merely a rerun of the aftermath of the first Bush Gulf War with all show and no go with a little more show this time around? |
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| Justine | Oct 26 2004, 11:21 PM Post #25 |
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Brief thoughs as I am tired. All hell has broken loose. We( you) are just bailing a boat with a teaspoon. I believe that many who go over there go to help. There are engineers, health care workers, humanitarian organizations, etc.,all of whom want to help get that country back on it feet. Unfortunately it is difficult to help rebuild a country that has a very strong group of wackos who do nothing but kill , destroy, and incite hatred. Get out, and let them self destruct, you ( America) are sort of in the position of being dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't. Just keep your young men and women safe. It breaks my heart to see children who are 18 and 19 being sent over there to die. |
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| telcoman | Oct 26 2004, 11:53 PM Post #26 |
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Statistics are notoriously easy to maniulate to make a point. I'm not saying yours are invalid, it just that I dont' think under the current conditions there its possible to make any judgement on progress or lack of it. |
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| teryt | Oct 27 2004, 12:01 AM Post #27 |
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Agreed here Chris - just thought I'd point that out since we seem to be at odds a lot. |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| teryt | Oct 27 2004, 12:09 AM Post #28 |
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1. I'm merely refering to the normal give & take in all these discussions. In a certain manner, we are all coming from a position, akin to negotiation (although I'm open for a different term). I'm currently in a "Power, Politics & Negotiation" class, so I'm seeing this forum with that sort of enlightenment - if you will. 2. Yes, in fact I was "personally attacked." A member of this forum, whom I won't mention, actually came to my house & tried to beat me with a 6 foot rubber hose. * 3. You want me to count? I'll get back to you once I've taken my shoes off for extra counting digits. 4. Now ain't that the big question? * Seriously - you are funnin with me, right? Otherwise this question is like way dramatic, don't you think!? It's late - gotta crash |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 27 2004, 05:20 AM Post #29 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Tery, 1) But we do not vie for power here. We give our opinions and take others'. We challenge and question. We do not bargain. The most to be gained is either some childish if not churlish pleasure thinking you've won some argument, or what I consider the more mature and civil atitude of learning something about oneself and others. 2) Nonanswer. These are the words where you say you were attacked: "It is human negotiating nature to try & defend your position when attacked." That is specifically what I am asking about and would seriously like an answer on. 3) Nonanswer. 4) Nonanswer. I get the feeling you do not like questions. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 27 2004, 05:23 AM Post #30 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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But, Tom, I still wonder what motivations brought reasonable men and women to buy that song and dance. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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