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| Iraq Really Two Questions; It's not just one issue | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 30 2004, 05:26 PM (253 Views) | |
| corky52 | Aug 30 2004, 05:26 PM Post #1 |
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We really have two issues involving Iraq. One issue is the correctness of the war there and it's handling up to this point. The second issue with Iraq is "Where do we go from here". The issue of how we came to invade Iraq and how we have handled the occupation of Iraq since is a question that deserves separate discussion because it goes to credibility and integrity of our current administration. Was this war right? What we as a nation are to do in the future with regard to Iraq is a question that at this point has a limited number of choices. While it is clear now that we have stepped in to a quagmire how we escape the quagmire with dignity is still a question we as a nation need to come to a consensus on. |
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| olstuf | Aug 30 2004, 05:36 PM Post #2 |
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Bill
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Wasn't an exit plan supposed to be developed before the start? What is a catastrophic success? Is that something like a successful operation to remove a splinter but the patient died? Who is guilty of making a "miscalculation" about the war? Bush or the generals? More than one question Corky. |
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| corky52 | Aug 30 2004, 05:41 PM Post #3 |
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Oldstuf, The question of the conduct of the war up to this point contains all of your points and is subject to scrutiny of the records for answers. The question of where to go from here is more a definition of choices and then a decision on future courses of action. Judgment on previous actions and selection of the path we wish to follow. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 30 2004, 05:56 PM Post #4 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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olstuf, "exit plan" was the Powell Doctrine, pre-emption the Bush Doctrine, so liberally lacking in concern for uintended consequences. Corky, I believe such separation is important. We must ask of each candidate what he did or would have done, and what he might now do. While a time goes by I reject more and more justification for invading Iraq, I still support our seeing it through. I believe, in comparison, Kerry would have been much more hesitant than Bush to go but would be much more anxious to leave. So on this issue, neither tips the scale. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| olstuf | Aug 30 2004, 06:11 PM Post #5 |
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Bill
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What is a acceptable exit plan? Bush has now said a war against terrorism is not winable. He stammered a bit after that statement but has he just seen the light or is he now in his compassionate mode? If it didn't offend some that were, I would almost think he is bi-polar. (used to call them manic depressive) I certainly don't want to spend my 80th birthday with our troops over there. Not even my 71st. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 30 2004, 06:54 PM Post #6 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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In the early days following 9/11 he spoke that way iirc, but something happened after Iraq, he grew defensive perhaps. But he speaks the truth, the Terror War is not winnable. It is hardly even fightable in a conventional sense. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| olstuf | Aug 30 2004, 07:09 PM Post #7 |
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Bill
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But did he just find that out? Israel has been fighting against the various factions since their inception. Seem to alway act with force but it never ends. Russia has been fighting in at theirs for 10 or more years. It is difficult to win any war but a war against an unseen and unknown enemy is at the best almost imposible. Either he is very naive or has an better opinion of himself than many others do. So far, the service pack has caused any problems. Of course, tomorrow is another day. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 30 2004, 07:23 PM Post #8 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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I'll look it up, but this is the way he spoke early on, the Terror War being unwinnable. The world has been fighting terrorism for well over a century, depending on how one defines it. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 30 2004, 07:35 PM Post #9 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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No, you're right, from the beginning he said we would win. Joint Session of Congress, September 20, 2001, Presidential Address, October 7, 2001, and so on.... |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Aug 30 2004, 07:55 PM Post #10 |
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Terror is a crime, not a political or religious point of view. There will always be crime and the opportunity for crime, nothing new there. What I find hard to understand this confusion of the weapon with the hand that used it. The President has evidently had a recent epiphany and learned a little English beyond cowboy comic books. Maybe now the President will go so far as to name the true enemies and their reasons for attacking us. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 30 2004, 08:25 PM Post #11 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Terror is a crime with a political agenda. Just the way I see it. Al Capone's gang committed crime, Al Queda terrorism. Saddam committed crimes, Bin Laden terrorism. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Aug 30 2004, 08:40 PM Post #12 |
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Terror is just a crime, Al Capone bombed places to enforce his extortion racket, pure terrorism, just for financial gain. Motivation has nothing to do with it. When world recognizes terrorism as a pure crime then we'll all be a lot better off. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 31 2004, 04:22 AM Post #13 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Then invading Iraq was justified as part of the global Terror War? Then the Drug War is the Terror War? Then corporate crime and blowing up railroads are the same war. A large part of our problem in fighting terror has been that lack of distinction. Any proper definition of anything requires classification (similarity, crime) and analysis (distinction, political). |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Aug 31 2004, 04:39 AM Post #14 |
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Do political or religious reasons make a terrorist act a more or less acceptable thing? Is a criminal gang better or worse if it's criminal activities are for a political purpose? Criminal activity is one of the most universally despised things in this world and the sooner terror is seen for what it is the sooner we will have a more peaceful and safer world. Terrorism is a particular type of crime and that is all the distinction that is needed. How would the 9/11 attack have been different if it had been carried out by criminals based in Haiti with a demand for money to keep it from happening again? Criminal conspiracy is criminal conspiracy only the goals are different. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 31 2004, 05:10 AM Post #15 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Corky, definition is not about emotional or moral judgments of acceptance, better or worse, despicability. Those are connotative add-ons. "Terrorism is a particular type of crime and that is all the distinction that is needed." And what particular type is that? A denotative definition requires classification and analysis. I am not disagreeing at all with the classification, just insisting on analysis. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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2:25 AM Jul 11