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Bush: Kerry More Heroic; Will both sides' muckraking stop?
Topic Started: Aug 29 2004, 08:59 AM (390 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
The arguments have been endless about Bush's and Kerry's service during Vietnam. I submit the following appeal to authority to settle the question. But will it settle it? Will the muckraking of both sides stop? Will the campaigns now turn from personal to political issues?

Bush Says Kerry 'More Heroic' for Going to Vietnam
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President Bush on Saturday described John Kerry's tour of duty in Vietnam as more heroic than his own service in the Air National Guard, saying his Democratic rival had been "in harm's way."

But the president told NBC's "Today" show that both sides should drop the debate over their wartime service, saying, "I think that we ought to move beyond the past. ... The real question is who best to lead us forward."

Asked if he believed that he and Kerry "served on the same level of heroism," Bush replied, "No, I don't. I think him going to Vietnam was more heroic than my flying fighter jets. He was in harm's way and I wasn't."

....The president continued to defend his own service in the Air National Guard, saying, "On the other hand, I served my country. Had my unit been called up, I would have gone."
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Could someone clarify free speech for me? The argument I'm hearing about those ads is that these veterans are exercising their right to free speech. But where does that stop? Is there no limit on advertising when it is defamation of character, which it is my understanding that it is false?

I do recall a lawsuit that Carol Burnett filed against a tabloid that accused her of being an alcoholic. But often the damage is done by just publishing it, because people have the notion that where there is smoke there is fire. Reputations are precious and so easily destroyed or eroded.

Sylvia
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olstuf
Bill
You've got to be kidding. With a billion bucks to spend? Only will get worse. This was the conservative compassionate Bush speaking. Remember him? He who will unite the country, not get involved with nation building, keep the lock box of Social Security locked. Don't forget, he has!

Yes, Slyvia. Problem is if you say it often enough and loud enough, people believe it. Kinda like the question-"Do you still beat your wife?"
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PRT
Member
I hope it stops - the military sniping. It serves no purpose and we only have a little over two months to go in this campaign. Let's talk about something relevant with these two gentlemen. Their war is over.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Not sure what free speech has to do with it. The problem is not so much with the one-sidedness of both sides' negative attacks, and not so much with partisans' in the same breath bashing and being appalled at the bashing, but with the dust storm it all raises to muck up debate over more important issues this nation faces.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
The flap has to do with where the money comes from. The election law is more concerned with who pays for the advertising than what it says. The organs that are publishing the “attacks” are legal. They can collect money and say what they wish even if the candidate does not endorse what they say. Yes, it is the exercise of free speech.

The problem arises when the media in their bias, attacks a group’s advertising as negative, or lies, while not covering the advertising of the other groups at all, or covering it for a short period of time. This is the case. “Move On” includes deceptive material in it’s messages, Whoppie Goldberg is free to call the president a “thug” and Al gore can call the president a “liar” and “traitor” These attacks are the exercise of free speech as is Michael Moore’s admitted deceptions in “Fahrenheit 9/11”. The attackers are surrogates for Senator Kerry; all are exercising free speech. In the same vein, the “Swiftboat Veterans for Truth”, and the book “Unfit for Command” are also exercises in free speech. The press and other media seem more troubled by some groups than others, and the efforts to silence anyone is a dangerous precedent to set. There have been more vitriolic attacks during presidential campaigns; the only difference is that communications today reach many more people. The country has survived more acrimonious times than these.

I am afraid that McCain-Feingold is a greater threat to the to the Constitution of the United States, in the long run than the Patriot Act.

Sylley,

Free speech means that you can say whatever you wish, period. In the U.S. the law is not the same as in England, and also perhaps Canada. If you are libeled here you must provide proof that the detractor knowingly and purposefully lied. A difficult burden to carry.

Frank
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Frank, your examples are all of 527s, and somewhat weighted, and not about "the media in their bias" in the matter.

Sylvia, may have found something relevant, and somewhat ironical: Political Veterans for Censorship: Bush and Kerry try to silence their critics
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Observers dismayed by the bitter partisanship of this presidential campaign should be happy now that George W. Bush and John Kerry finally agree on something: It turns out they both believe in using the government to silence their critics.

Kerry has filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission (FEC) demanding the removal of TV ads that question his Vietnam record. He argues that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT), the group sponsoring the ads, is illegally coordinating its activities with the Bush campaign. The Democrats have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation of the group.

Oddly, since Kerry's supporters say SBVT is nothing but a front group for the Republicans, they also demand that Bush "denounce the smear." In response, the president has called for the elimination of all ads sponsored by independent political groups that, like SBVT, are tax-exempt under Section 527 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Bush pronounced himself amazed that such groups, known as 527s, are still allowed to have their say. "I, frankly, thought we'd gotten rid of that when I signed the McCain-Feingold bill," he told reporters the other day, referring to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002, which was aimed at preventing freedom of speech from interfering with democracy. "I don't think we ought to have 527s... I think they're bad for the system."

... Although FEC Chairman Bradley Smith voted on August 19 to impose new restrictions on 527s beginning in 2005, his response to Kerry's complaint about Swift Boat Veterans for Truth revealed a clearer understanding of what's at stake than either Bush or Kerry has demonstrated. "I think it's great we live in a country where 260 average guys can go out and put their point of view out there before the public and influence a major presidential race," Smith told Bloomberg Television. "I am not one who agrees it is illegitimate for citizens to take a stand on these kind of issues and only the politicians should be able to say what they want about the issues they want to talk about."

The problem with Smith's view is he thinks the 527s are composed of ordinary citizens funded out of their own pockets.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
I'm wondering lately - and this applies to both "sides" - will this go down in History as "The Election of ThirtyFive Years Ago"???

Kinda looks like it.... <_<
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"Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Mur, are you referring to Our Second Civil War?
Quote:
 
Well, kids, welcome to an encore presentation of our Second Civil War. The anger and viciousness of the Swift boat debate provide just a brief reminder of how Vietnam divided our nation for a decade.....

Watching this debate over Vietnam while a new generation of Americans are risking their lives in Iraq, I had a sudden vision: a television talk show in April of 2025, on the 50th anniversary of the end of the war in Vietnam. After being pushed into the studio in wheelchairs, the ancient veterans suddenly come to life with still another round of name-calling. How long before the lessons from Vietnam can be absorbed into our national life without resurrecting a civil war that cleaves us still?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
In part, yes - it's so saddening to see old scars ripped open again, vile and vicious.
The War just wont go away.
But I also meant this constant clap-trap about who did what, was Kerry a phony, was Bush AWOL, yada-yada-yada.... I wish things were so good in Canada that we had no other pressing matters to thnk about. <_<
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PRT
Member
I don't care who or what is paying for these commercials, from both camps, but they are getting old. Enough already. There are more pressing matters to introduce/discuss.
If Kerry thinks his constantly keeping his military service in front of us has helped him, I don't agree.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Actually, Pat, neutral as I am, or rather, negative toward both as I am, Bush started it by campaigning as the War President, and that set the tone as to who is more qualified on that front. Kerry says he's qualified for having fought in war while Move On et al attack Bush's qualifications and then the Swifts attack Kerry's and it keeps escalating into irrelvancy on the initial issue. Ain't politics great!
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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PRT
Member
Bush should give up the War President business, Kerry should give up Vietnam, and they both should talk about things like taxes, education, the economy, SS, Medicare, health insurance, environmental issues et al; you know - small things like that :rolleyes:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Oh, on that we more than agree.

BTW, Bush did a 180° and has decided he is the Peace Prsident. Go figure.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
Chris,
I have to disagree. The only 527’s mentioned are the “Swiftboat Vets for Truth”, and
“Move On” (one surrogate for each side.) The Democrat party has 85 % of the 527’s on their side. I specifically mentioned non-527’s such as books, Hollywood types, and politicians who regularly blast their favorite whipping boy. I believe they all have a right to do so, that’s what free speech is about. As far as being biased, I am, as I see little or nothing that qualifies Kerry for the job. A Lt. (j.g.) in charge of a patrol boat just doesn’t impress me. That being said I don't particularly appreciate Bush's proposals to stop folks from expressing themselves. If the government can stop a group with backing from a wealthy source it can do the same with funding from any source.

I agree that it’s past time to put this stuff behind us, and I think that is just what will happen beginning with the Republican Convention. However, I believe it important for anyone to be free to say what he or she believes about someone seeking public office.

Frank
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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