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Colin Powell Said It Best!; Must be very hard for him now.
Topic Started: Aug 26 2004, 10:37 AM (424 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
banan, what was all that supposed to mean?

Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Banandangees
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Banandangees
Aug 27 2004, 05:48 PM
pentax
Aug 26 2004, 05:12 PM
Powell and Rice are the only two in the "inner circle" that I have respect for.
I used to think they could both use some smiling lessons - but, sailing on that Ship of Fools, I guess it would be pretty tough to find a reason to....

There is a good chance that Colin Powell and Condy Rice (if they were Democrats) would be shouting their comments in from the cotton fields if Gore would have been President.

We'll have to see how many black Americans are part of the "very inner circle" if Senator Kerry wins the election. I don't mean a token black like Brown in the Clinton administration. I mean a black as a very improtant member of the inner circle.

"Banan, what was all that supose to mean?"

Cmoehle,

Pentax is pretty well known to favor the left. (Democrat Party for the most part)

I, on the other hand, favor the right. (Republican Party for the most part)

That's fine.

He says that he respects Powell and Rice on the Republican side and that's about it. And, I think many on the liberal side would agree with him. Cynthia Tucker (a black columnist for the Washington Post) would undoubtedly agree with Pentax's statement. She has expressed such in various columns.

That's fine.

Powell (in particular) and Rice (to a lessor extent) have been viewed as being less "in your face" as viewed by the left; Powell has been more favororable (in the past) to waiting on the U.N. for support (that is more accepted by the Democrat Party.)

Yet (the meat of what I was saying), would either of them (Powel or Rice), if they were Democrat, have been in the position they now occupy if Gore was President? When is the last time the Democrat Party has had a black person in a position of such significant power and influence; yet, they expect (and usually get) the black vote. Do they get the black vote because they lift the black person up through self development influences and by putting high caliber black people in positions of real leadership because they are worthy and in doing so make them real role models for the black youth. Or, do they get the black vote because of the "largess" that the Democrats promise - programs that will "give them something" without much effort on their part; thereby holding them down. Danzel Washington understands what I am saying and expressed it on a NBC program with Katie Couric.

If Kerry wins, will he put in a position of real importance, worthy, highly credentialed black Americans such as Powell and Rice? Or will the Democrats just want to gather their votes?
Banan
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Pentax favors the left, eh? I leave him to speak to that, though I thought he was favoring the people Powell and Rice without concern for their politics.

The Reps and Dems are both left of center so I don't understand the left and right stuff--that old ideological rivalry pretty much died out with the end of Cold War back in the early 70s, despite Reagan's trying to revive it, and some in the media continually kicking it like a dead horse.

Nor do I have any real good idea how to address the caricatures you paint as stereo-typical if not mythological Reps and Dems. What the real Gore would've done no one has a clue just as no one has a clue what the real Kerry will do or for that matter Bush in the future.

"Do they get the black vote because they lift the black person up through self development influences and by putting high caliber black people in positions of real leadership because they are worthy and in doing so make them real role models for the black youth. Or, do they get the black vote because of the "largess" that the Democrats promise - programs that will "give them something" without much effort on their part; thereby holding them down."

Now that is a very interesting question to which I would answer both parties participate in both.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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sylley2000
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Sylvia, Grand Bend ON
Wow, it must be awful to be among the minority!

There are those who when a member of the minority raises themselves, accuse them of having the position because they are a minority! It's a vicious circle.

Must be wonderful to be male, white and ...

Sylvia
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
Favor the left? Well, I've been told that from time to time. But I was once a card-carrying member of the Progressive Conservative Party, the most "right" of Canada's main parties at the time. Went to some meetings, pounded some signs, made some phone calls, too - not just sitting on my butt.
But "Lyin' Brian" Mulroney taught me what phonies and hypocrites that ALL politicians are - whether you believe in GW or Kerry, remember one thing, they are just politicians. Bush happens to have the highest job in the country, but he is still a politician.

Some of my "leftness" might stem from my youth - I remember when it was respectable to be "liberal-minded"... but I also remember that George Wallace was a Democrat.... argue, if you will, that he was just standing up for his State's rights against the Feds, but his "cause" was still wrong.

Socially, one could call me "left", I suppose; I worry that you folks have traded a lot of liberty for a little transient security, vis-a-vis the Patriot Act. I will not stand to have a Government tell a citizen that they cant choose abortion, or that they MUST make their child participate in any particular religious expression in order to start their day in school. I believe in God, but it is a personal matter and I respect those who do not, or see God in a different way than I. I see your Constitution as an instrument to PRESERVE the rights and freedoms of citizens, not to PREVENT them, by forbidding someone to marry.
(I realize these situations do NOT exist at present - but there is a vast group of people that would see that change, if they could. And as I see it, a lot of them are pretty close to this White House.)

On the other hand, one of the great criticisms I have of the current Administration is of a very conservative nature - and that is the "Fiscal Foolishness" shown for the last few years. I would favour (any level) of Government that enacted legislation that FORCES a balanced Budget, as my province has, and others.
To spend tomorrows money today is to simple pass the check to your kids and grandkids.
When I bought my fifth-wheel, I didnt tell the dealer to send the bill to my kids - but thats exactly what Bush's folks are doing. We have seen, in Canada, what decades of over-spending does, when the time comes to pay the piper. You will too someday, or your kids will. And you will not like it.
Further, as another "conservative" trait, I am ashamed of the way our Military in Canada has to put up with too little, too late, and too inferior.... Its a disgrace that shows only a little sign of improving. But once again - thats what happens when your government can't pay its bills any longer.
Be afraid - be very afraid. :unsure:
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Banandangees
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The issue I was writing to was of Powel and Rice and the respect they are afforded by the left.

By that I mean, the respect that these two people are held to by the left in comparison to the respect afforded to the rest of the administration ('the inner circle") that these two are a part of. Am I saying that the left (not Pentax) is using their expressed admiration of these two people as a comparative tool to demonize (not entirely an exaggeration) the rest of the administration? Yes, pretty much. They, of the Democrat Party, are politicians (as Pentax says) and are capable of that very thing. They want the votes.

Take away Gore, Kerry and even Pentax and all the what ifs and peripherals. The Democrat Party has never had a black American the caliber of Powel and Rice in a position as sensitive to America's welfare as the positions that they now occupy. I am saying that to this point in modern American history, the Democrat Party say they represent the black American; but, to this point in time, they have not let any black American of similar caliber represent the Democrat Party or America in such a high position in their administration, to the degree that the present administration has. My statement has nothing to do with which party, or both, is left or right of center. It has nothing to do with taxing and spending the people's money.

As far as which Party leads in placing a black American of high caliber in a position of very sensitive importance to the welfare of American, the Republicans lead 2 to zip. We will have to wait and see the color of President Kerry's "inner circle."

Pentax, I appologize for my catagorizing or labelling you. I did not mean it in a negative way. Of the things you stated in the quote of yours that I used, I did say, "that's fine."
Banan
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
banan, this guy, who happens to be a Republican, no, better, a conservative, fiscal not social (i.e., radical), and, incidently black, begs to differ: GOP needs to get serious about grooming Black candidates
Quote:
 
Grooming a new generation of black Republican leaders is perhaps the greatest task currently facing the Republican Party....

....Republicans will not retain long-term, stable control of government unless they do a better job establishing legitimacy with minority voters.

Presently, blacks don't vote Republican because they don't feel like they're welcome in the party. Makes sense. On the federal level, the Republicans don't have a single black senator or congressperson....

Republican candidates with experience as big-city officials, who maintain regular association with black venues, tend to do OK with black voters. But, as we know, the GOP is not a party of big-city officials. On the whole, black American communities and venues remain unfamiliar turf for Republicans.

By contrast, about one-quarter of the membership of the Democratic National Committee is black. This strong representation within the party means more American blacks get hired by - and elected to - government at every level, under the party's auspices. This creates a positive ripple effect throughout the community. Black politicians typically maintain close associations with other black community figures such as ministers, teachers, entrepreneurs and union officials. These interlocking relationships proclaim to African-Americans that they are part of the Democratic Party....

A number of new-wave moderate and conservative black political leaders are gaining local and state office outside the auspices of the liberal Democratic black establishment....

These new leaders are more conservative than the old guard....

The Republicans - and black America - are facing a historic opportunity. Should the Republicans get serious....That would be a refreshing change of pace for a community that has been stuck on the dead-end street of victimhood for too long.

The Reps are this and the Dems are that is in most cases baloney. They are virtually indistinguishable.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TrampleLad
Steve
I'm not absolutley sure on my memory, but didn't the Democrat's offer Powell a position and he turned it down?
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
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Pentax, I appologize for my catagorizing or labelling you. I did not mean it in a negative way. Of the things you stated in the quote of yours that I used, I did say, "that's fine."


No need to - I just have a past experience, particularly with Americans more than Canadians, of having to explain why I don't fit into a "box". (I suspect this is because there are more Canadians as a whole who are somewhat like me.)
I at one time thought I could be described as "a centrist", but apparently that entails a deeper meaning South of the Border than I understand. To me, it (or I at least) mean only that I look at various issue areas separately, and am of a range of opinion, even level of conviction, across the board depending on the subject.


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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Centrist is a term everyone uses. Clinton was a centrist, so claims Dean. Bush is sometimes described as a centrist, but he's a liberal. No depth there.

There are a new movements who call themselves radical centrists. Not centrist or moderate except by "averaging" various conservative and liberal stances. Someone, say, who is strongly fiscally conservative and equally strongly socially liberal. --But people with binary vision have difficulty with that, so drop the radical, then insist no one's really a centrist, you have to be one or the other, you're not like me so you must be the other. Now, that's deep!
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
I have deep respect for Colin Powell and if he was running for President and I still lived in Chicago, I would vote early and often for him. ;)

Why,

He is for a strong military that is used judiciously
He has a worldview that is focused on the future that is coming rather than the past
He is a fiscal conservative
He is against abortion but doesn’t think within limits, it is the governments business.
He owns and uses guns but thinks that there is a limit to the artillery that people should own.

Yet when rumors came out that he would challenge Bush in 2000 the Right Wing talk shows immediately began to trash him, (I heard them so this is not second hand info) because he wasn’t a “pure” conservative, and guess what the recurring theme of those that called in was, I have a friend, who has a friend, that is in the military that knows that Powell is a product of affirmative action and thus is not qualified, he is a “LIBERAL”.

I guess radical centrist would describe me; I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. As I stated on ATC once, my friends that are cons accuse me of being a lib and my friends that are libs accuse me of being a con. I kind of like that, if I can confound both extremes of political thought and not be boxed in, can’t be all bad.

Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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Banandangees
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cmoehle
Aug 28 2004, 11:27 AM
Centrist is a term everyone uses. Clinton was a centrist, so claims Dean. Bush is sometimes described as a centrist, but he's a liberal. No depth there.

There are a new movements who call themselves radical centrists. Not centrist or moderate except by "averaging" various conservative and liberal stances. Someone, say, who is strongly fiscally conservative and equally strongly socially liberal. --But people with binary vision have difficulty with that, so drop the radical, then insist no one's really a centrist, you have to be one or the other, you're not like me so you must be the other. Now, that's deep!

;) Yea, real deep! If Republicans and Democrats are "virtually indistinguishable" in there governing (not etiology), then doesn't that suggest that there is not much of a right or left anymore in terms of how they conduct government. And if we "insist no one's really a centrist," then how do we describe ourselves, our party and platform differences? And if there are no differences, meaning the parties are similar (in their governing), then wouldn't they be pretty much the same - like centrists with no significant extremes to label?

That's hard to understand. There is no right, there is no left, there is no black, there is no white, and no centrists - just.... what? :huh: Sort of like a one national government, a one national order, and I suppose, on to a one national religion. I can see the UN smiling already.

In the words of Ray Ramono ( Everybody Loves Raymond ) : Come on Comet :D ;)
Banan
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
TrampleLad
Aug 27 2004, 07:54 PM
I'm not absolutely sure on my memory, but didn't the Democrat's offer Powell a position and he turned it down?

As I read this thread, I was thinking the same thing. I have a feeling that, had Powell served under a democratic administration, that administration would not have intentionally undercut Powell's sincere attempt in the United Nations. At one time, the Bush's administration largest nightmare was that Powell's attempts at solving the Iraq situation using diplomacy rather than military might might show some success. Such success would have taken away their plans to demonstrate the "shock and awe" of United States military might.
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
banan "doesn't that suggest that there is not much of a right or left anymore in terms of how they conduct government"

Bingo!

"And if we "insist no one's really a centrist," then how do we describe ourselves, our party and platform differences?"

You'll have to tell me. I don't think that way. By your question, you, apparently, do.

To clarify, it is binary, right/left thinking people, who insist there can be no such thing as a centrist. My argument is the Reps and Dems are not right or left but indistinguishably centrist. That's where the votes are, and when winning is everything, that's where you go.

Center now, for Reps and Dems, if you haven't noticed leans left.

"And if there are no differences, meaning the parties are similar (in their governing), then wouldn't they be pretty much the same - like centrists with no significant extremes to label?"

Bingo!

"Sort of like a one national government, a one national order, and I suppose, on to a one national religion. I can see the UN smiling already."

Bingo!

That's exactly where the Dems and Reps are taking us.


BTW, I see you dropped your Reps are doing more for blacks than Dems argument. Armstrong Williams, the author of that piece, didn't mince words did he?

With regard to that, since I'd thought that line of thinking would continue, your way of expressing the Rep v Dem argument re blacks examples my argument they are indistinguishable. It is easy to look at what you say as saying what the Dems are doing for blacks is bad but what the Reps are doing is good. Take away the value judgment. That leaves us with what Dems and Reps are doing for blacks. It's all about what whites are doing for blacks. Isn't the message of Williams, Sowell, Cosby today what blacks can do for themselves?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Banandangees
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Come on Comet! :)
Banan
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