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| Amendment Xvi; I want it repealed | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 21 2004, 11:55 AM (724 Views) | |
| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 11:55 AM Post #1 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Amendment XVI: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. " I want it repealed. Others agree. Alan Keyes. Nearby Congressman Ron Paul. Who the heck ever thought that one up anyway?!?!? We're never going to stop the liberal spending by Reps and Dems. Let's cut off the funding. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| MDPD6320 | Aug 21 2004, 01:09 PM Post #2 |
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
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I believe this to be THE most important issue on the political horizon, eclipsing even the most important foreign policy considerations. The income tax is onerous, freedom robbing, and counter-productive. I believe it is the reason for much juvenile crime and dependency. Many young parents both work to provide a decent income. Many women would be able to remain at home with their children if their husbands came home with a paycheck untaxed. The income tax is a fraud perpetrated on the people to tax wealth, not income. It prevents people from earning enough discretionary money to save from generation to generation, passing wealth from parent to child. It is a tax only on those who receive a W-2 form. Businesses pass it on and treat it as a cost of doing business, people dealing in "cash only" skim all profit, and those engaged in illegal activities, pay nothing. This is the most important issue facing us today as it goes to the very root of why we have a free society, and how much longer can we sustain it with the present system of taxation. Frank |
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" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have." "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. | |
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| brewster | Aug 21 2004, 01:20 PM Post #3 |
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
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Keeping in mind that a National Sales Tax like we have in Canada is undoubtedly the worst possible administrative nightmare imaginable, what would you put in place? Unfortunately, governments need money... |
My Favourite CampsiteBow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta | |
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| olstuf | Aug 21 2004, 01:28 PM Post #4 |
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Bill
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How then will you provide for the infrastucture that our government provides thru taxation? Is it to be every one for themselves? I would be interested in your policy of no taxation. Tell me how it will work. I dislike paying taxes and expecially being taxed on money that I have already paid taxes on before. I need this answer fairly quick as I have an appointment soon with my property tax assessor. I have no children and still pay a very high percentage of my income to educate the children of others. Solutions! |
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| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 01:37 PM Post #5 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Infrastucture and such things we cannot do for ourselves as individuals, communities, or states, is fine. In fact investing in infrastructure would be a good thing re deficit spending, not the socialist spending of the social "conservatives" we see now. Brewster, I am not proposing a replacement tax. Congress would leap at that as another means of taxing the people without giving up on the income tax. Any other tax would require another amendment. Frank "I believe it is the reason for much juvenile crime and dependency." Dependency is what it is about re d'Tocqueville and bribery, but juvenile crime? Please, expand upond that point. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| MDPD6320 | Aug 21 2004, 01:53 PM Post #6 |
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
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In regard to Canada’s sale’s tax, I have no idea as to its administration. I can tell you that most States already collect a sales tax and implementation of a Federal layer would not increases costs too much. In addition I don’t know how familiar you are with the U.S. income tax system. Nothing could be more complex and costly. I think the last figure I heard was 700,000 pages of regulation in the code. What’s more is that as I said it is applied to all, but there are many that pass it on or do not pay at all while those working for others pick up the greatest share. Chris, In my experience, children or teens without parental guidance committed most of the juvenile crime. They are home alone after school or do not go to school at all. The greatest portion of that crime committed is residential burglaries, and auto theft. When children’s parents were home the crime rate decreased. Elimination of income tax and therefore withholding taxes would increase the number of women that would elect to stay home by not working or working part time. Some of these positions may be filled with men currently unable to find work. Frank |
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" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have." "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 02:06 PM Post #7 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Frank, you may have a reasonable argument there. Sort of a round about way to say people need to take responsibility and teach their kids some values. Why can't working parent take on that responsibility? Are working parents, who may in fact take on an enourmous amount of responsibility, the problem? We can make general rules about government we call principles, but dealing with people, that's not so easy. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| roscoe | Aug 21 2004, 02:11 PM Post #8 |
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Member
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We have a lot of folks that live in our school district with no children or those that had children but are out of school. Some are being forced out of their homes due to the taxes that have gone through the roof. The system of paying for schools through the ownership of homes is outdated at best. One of our local state Senators has figured out that the ones leaving the state are the folks that use the services the least because of the tax burden. He is proposing to have a payroll tax to fund education instead of property taxes . After going to many meetings with the community and doing a lot of discussing of the issues ( Election time ) He has decided to seek the advice of a local college professor. Not being a local college professor my thoughts on the matter would be if you have no kids and you make 50 grand a year and your neighbor makes 200 grand a year with 6 kids in school is it fair you should pay as much in school taxes as he does. I don't think so. Pay for education through payroll taxes. By the way forget about any other different system of raising taxes. Nobody will ever change that good ol boy system with all it's loopholes. |
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| brewster | Aug 21 2004, 02:26 PM Post #9 |
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
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Chris, I agree that all governments would jump at the chance to add one more tax - it's a dandy way to hide just how much they're taking already. I also agree that getting taxed twice on the same money is truly annoying! But it DOES take money to operate a country - somehow what we really need is a way to restrict the total amount, more than they way it's collected. I think of paying taxes as my "Dues" for the privilege of living in such a free and prosperous country... I also think of education taxes as not "paying for someone else's kids", but an investment in the overall prosperity of the nation - an ignorant nation is a poor nation, and not long free. So, the problem is not to restrict income, but to somehow prevent politicians from using our money for whatever project they've decided will buy them votes! |
My Favourite CampsiteBow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 02:45 PM Post #10 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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roscoe "By the way forget about any other different system of raising taxes. Nobody will ever change that good ol boy system with all it's loopholes." You got it. Cut 'em off at their achilles' heels. Then ask what am I willing to pay for, no, what are we, as a society willing to pay for. The old guy down the street with no kids has to buy in to the system that protects his rights. Brewster, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say, I wonder if anyone does. We have to operate a country. To succeed we have to educate--only an educated citizenry can make good choices. Etc. And, yes, "So, the problem is not to restrict income, but to somehow prevent politicians from using our money for whatever project they've decided will buy them votes!" Well, why tax my income? Why tax what I work for, why tax what I contribute? Why tax my incentive? Tax what I spend is the best argument I've heard. I can at least control that. Making politicians accountable comes up all the time. I haven't figured out how to do that. Controlling what they have to spend seems a good idea. Controlling what they have to spend so they have to listen to more than stinking special interest groups and lobbyists would be a step in the right direction. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| MDPD6320 | Aug 21 2004, 03:29 PM Post #11 |
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
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Chris, In regard to working parents, yes, they take on a great and necessary responsibility. One can't argue that a person doesn't need a sufficient income to raise a child. I believe because the tax burden is disproportionate, i.e. many circumvent the tax codes, causing both parents to work leaving children to be influenced by others. I know that most parents would rather be with their children especially during their formative years, but they also want to provide an elevated standard of living. This is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is a tax code that favors business, people who deal in cash and those who deal in illegal activities. Don't get me wrong about business; there is no way that a business can be taxed on its income, as the very nature of a business is to incorporate expenses as overhead. This is why I favor a national sales tax. People would then be able to control some spending and therefore avoid unaffordable taxes. Frank |
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" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have." "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. | |
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| brewster | Aug 21 2004, 03:50 PM Post #12 |
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
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Chris & Frank; I want to put a little bigger piece together based on Taxation Theory ( I hope to keep it simple, because a quick search turned up 47 million pages of conflicting information) But in the meantime, if you DID kill Income Tax, and you agree that some form of Sales Tax is the answer (I know Chris, you want to limit it entirely) What would you tax? Food? Medicine? (Very hard on poor people) Housing? (Puts a damper on building in a RUSH! Been there!) Entertainment? Luxury Items? (Does that include televisions? Restaurants? Liquor? How high can you tax 'em?) Transportation? (The truckers will LOVE that! That drives the cost of EVERYTHING up!) Imported goods? (Remember, it wasn't until the Japanese started sending over cars that GM and Ford started worrying about Quality Control... Are you willing to live with the status quo?) These may seem like facetious questions, but they are exactly what happens in every country that puts in National Sales Tax. Keeping track of the exceptions becomes a full time job. In Canada, the complexities mean that every business, big or small, has to have an accountant on staff. it has driven many small businesses bankrupt. It is estimated to cost the Canadian Consumer 5% BEFORE THE TAX IS EVEN APPLIED! |
My Favourite CampsiteBow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 04:04 PM Post #13 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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brewster "I know Chris, you want to limit it entirely" It, my argument, is obviously an untenable argument, but the resulting discussion is getting better. Your questions are good ones, very good and realistic ones, and not at all facetious, they are tough ones that need to be decided, not democratically, but representationally, as a republic must, and not by special interests and lobbyists, but what is self-interestedly good for the nation--I could be accused of overgeneralizing, but I am interested more in a principle to apply across the board. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| olstuf | Aug 21 2004, 06:02 PM Post #14 |
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Bill
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I would imagine if there were a national sales tax, the furor over exemptions would be so horrendous that it would make the campaign BS seem tame. Exemptions in our state tax system is bad enough. Farm items are an example. If I purchase a shovel to dig in my flower beds, it is taxable. If a farmer purchases it for his farm work, it isn't. If I put a water softener in my house, taxable, farmer puts one in the milkhouse, not taxed. Small examples but just an idea of the mess it can cause. I went thru this when our state decided to expand the sales tax. Even went to the classes and it really didn't help as the folks teaching the class didn't know much about it either. Not as simple as it sounds. |
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| brewster | Aug 21 2004, 07:12 PM Post #15 |
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
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Taxation Theory An admittedly oversimplified version of Taxation Theory goes like this: Taxes are a necessary evil, and the best you can do is limit their harm. Therefore, Taxes should: Be Fair - “Fair” could be argued, but basically the less you’ve got, the less income is available for taxes. Be Efficient – One thing that most people don’t understand about the cost of taxes is administrative costs, both to the government and to the public. An example I could give is the Canadian Postal Service – until recently, it cost more to print, distribute and check the validity of postage stamps than was actually collected. It would have been cheaper for all concerned to have free mail! Not limit incentives – The worst case here is Welfare schemes that quit as soon as someone gets a job. Since it’s probably a bottom end job, the worker makes less than he/she did on welfare. Guess why we end up with a welfare bum culture that goes on for generations? The next thing to note is that there are really only four types of taxation, although any decent government can come up with 10,000 variations on the theme: Income Tax – Has the virtue of being the easiest to administer in theory, since it’s all done at one point. But it’s the easiest to fiddle with – hence 700,000 pages of documentation. Sales Tax – Simplest to understand in theory, but by far the most difficult to administer, as there is no central collection point. Property Tax – Fairly easy to administer, as it’s usually dealing with fixed items, harder to fiddle with, but it’s my personal hate – What’s mine is MINE, dammit! If I’ve worked all my life and done without other things so I can have a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, I shouldn’t be taxed extra like I was some millionaire! It was my lifestyle choice! Excise/Customs Taxes – These should only be used to make a “level playing field” between countries – In my view, hopefully the world is moving closer and closer to free trade, and these can disappear. There’s one other type of “Almost Tax”, and that is User Fees. They should be used only to support some the function for which they were collected. Unfortunately, almost every government I’ve ever heard of just thinks of it as one more cash cow… You can argue about which of these taxes is best, but you cannot argue that having ALL of them in place is the worst possible world! We are actually taxed THREE times on our possessions! In a Moment, BRUCE’S ANSWER TO EVERYTHING. |
My Favourite CampsiteBow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta | |
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