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| Friendly Fire:; The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 20 2004, 05:03 PM (430 Views) | |
| Colo_Crawdad | Aug 20 2004, 05:03 PM Post #1 |
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Lowell
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I think that it is self consuming amazing how hatred for John Kerry's actions following the Vietnam War could turn some Vietnam War veterans into blatant liars about what happened during the war? The following excerpts give a flavor of the problem with the group calling itself "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth." The full article is far too long to post in its entirety. (My emphasis added.} How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans. A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election. The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements. Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| olstuf | Aug 20 2004, 05:40 PM Post #2 |
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Bill
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I have no real knowledge of Kerry's actions as most do not. He did go however. His view of the war changed apparently and so did mine. I do have a couple of friends who were in combat and after all these years really are not comfortable about talking of their experiences. Do things happen in combat that one regrets afterward? Undoubtedly. As I listen to Kerry's messages during his appearance at the hearing, I did not sense he was against his fellow service men but the war itself. I certainly cannot judge on a basis of what I would have done in the same situation. Certainly many of our vets were treated somewhat poorly by our government after returning. Not a great moment in our history. |
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| Jim Miller | Aug 20 2004, 06:00 PM Post #3 |
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Member
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Colo, I personally do not know how much is truth and how much is fiction. But there is far too much controversy surronding Kerry to make him believable anymore. I would think that there is enough there to question for any voter to want to rethink their choice of Presidential candidate. I do not believe the controversy surrounding Bush has anywhere near the scope or depth that Kerry's controversy does. |
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Jim Pennsylvania in the Summer Florida in the Winter | |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Aug 20 2004, 06:27 PM Post #4 |
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Lowell
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Jim, The difference, I think, between the controversy surrounding the two candidates is that the controversy surrounding Kerry is all about when he was a 20+ year old young man while the controversy surrounding Bush is all about his actions and comments in the last four years. I think those last four years become the trump. He has failed miserably. Time to give someone else a try. JMO |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 20 2004, 07:05 PM Post #5 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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olstuf "I did not sense he was against his fellow service men but the war itself." That's how I take it too, for example when in terviews back then he talked of war crimes, they were not war crimes individuals committed, but the government. Jim "I personally do not know how much is truth and how much is fiction." That's about where I stop because just as there is "far too much controversy surronding Kerry to make him believable anymore" there is controversy surrounding those raising the controversy. So who do you believe? So who do you believe? Just about no one anymore. What a disappointing statement about our times, and perhaps even our nation. Lowell, Kerry's been a Senator for those same four years and his rhetoric and record is not any better. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| bikemanb | Aug 20 2004, 07:39 PM Post #6 |
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Liberal Conservative
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That both parties would go to the extent they have to discredit each others candidates service is a sad commentary on what sorry excuses for organizations they have become. Both have become such creatures of their respective specials interests that they can't articulate a platform that appeals to a majority of voters, so character assassination becomes their weapon of choice. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Aug 20 2004, 08:34 PM Post #7 |
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Lowell
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It seems that I saw some research after the elections two years ago that found that attack ad while considered repulsive by most voters, were the most effective type of political advertising to gain votes at the poll. That meant that folks don't like them but use them to decide their voting. Go figure.... As long as that is how people make up their voting minds, the attack ads will likely continue. Lowell |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
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| pulsar | Aug 20 2004, 09:27 PM Post #8 |
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Member
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The nastiness in politics, particularly presidential elections, has been with us since the earliest days of the republic. Perhaps the record holder for nastiness was the contest between Adams and Jefferson, the only election contested between the incumbent President and the incumbent Vice President. The difference now is television. In the Adams-Jefferson election, the slanders were in the printed press. Today, the vilifying is much almost universally and continually available in every household. The stakes are great in a presidential election. The contest is usually between men with large egos. For them and the handlers, which are often in the background, winning is everything. In business, score is kept by salary. In politics, President is the top plum. Tom |
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| bikemanb | Aug 21 2004, 06:03 AM Post #9 |
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Liberal Conservative
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Tom, scores a direct hit.
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| cmoehle | Aug 21 2004, 08:07 AM Post #10 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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I would imagine, while we can now read about it in history, early muckracking was more localized, not so widespread. Nowadays it is more national, or should I say more centralized. Yes, because of television, media in general, the parties themselves, even our mobility, all have contributed to that centralization. Even local state elections are centralized--as we discussed recently in the case of Illinois with the Republicans bringing in Keyes. Because it is nationalized, centralized, it seems much worse. I mean, there is no place you can go to get away from it. Canada? Europe? No, you're still barraged with the negativity. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| bikemanb | Aug 21 2004, 09:32 AM Post #11 |
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Liberal Conservative
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Some of the European countries do not allow campagining until 60 days before the election. Maybe this should be something we look into as a country. Might not improve quality but sure would reduce exposure.
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| DanHouck | Aug 22 2004, 06:49 PM Post #12 |
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Land of Enchantment NM
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Source of this is the New York Times. Enough said. Hardly a credible, unbiased source. Try again. Dan |
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| Peralko | Aug 23 2004, 08:42 AM Post #13 |
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Member
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Chris: "That's how I take it too, for example when in terviews back then he talked of war crimes, they were not war crimes individuals committed, but the government." From what I read when we discussed this issue on the other side, I saw Kerry criticizing fellow veterans, as well as those still in service. I saw very little (no?) of criticism of President Johnson, where the majority of the blame should be placed. But then, since Kerry wanted to build a political future in the democratic party, that could not be expected! A fairly good report on Kerry's experiences in Vietnam in yesterday's paper. I don't see much use in hashing over whether he deserved the Bronze and Silver Stars. His shortened tour and his attacks on military servicemen is another story! I definitly don't buy the line that he was a twenty-something, so what he did should not count today. |
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| cmoehle | Aug 23 2004, 12:09 PM Post #14 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Per, I have seen nothing where he named anyone specifically, and that is largely my point. To me, given the times, he was criticizing the whole "establishment" and the Cold War mentality at the time. Perhaps the details counter that, but I have not seen them. But, yes, the buck shoulda stopped at Johnson, and it did, he stepped down, refused to run. I have little doubt Kerry was and is an opportunist. Most pols are. Dan "Source of this is the New York Times. Enough said. Hardly a credible, unbiased source. " Perhaps the messenger is, but that is not a counter argument against the ideas presented. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Peralko | Aug 23 2004, 12:36 PM Post #15 |
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Member
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Chris: "Per, I have seen nothing where he named anyone specifically, and that is largely my point." That is exactly my point. He did not criticize anyone specifically, he criticised all servicemembers and veterans. From what I read of his speech to Congress, he made it sound like the atrocities--and there were some--were commited by all in uniform in Vietnam, which was far from the case. Most military in Vietnam were just trying to survive, and fight for their country. For the "peace" protesters to hear of atrocities from someone like Kerry, who had been there, gave them the incentive to spit on the returing veterans, who did not deserve that treatment. |
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2:26 AM Jul 11