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Intelligent Designer Identified!
Topic Started: Jun 28 2006, 10:34 AM (713 Views)
ngc1514
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teryt
Jul 2 2006, 07:41 PM
Common now, we both know . . . I suppose if you don't think we are the most intelligent, that's fine.  At least we have clarity on that point. 

Then again, maybe you made that assessment based upon your dialog with me!  (I just love good self-deprecating humor;  {then again, maybe that wasn't good} beats others to the punch.) :pound:

You are selecting intelligence as the "highest order of life?" Sorry, you didn't make that clear in your original post.

The value of intelligence as a tool of reproductive success remains to be seen. Homo Sapiens has been around for what? 20,000 years? Cockroaches have existed for 100 million years.

I doubt mankind will exist for even half of one percent of that timespan. And if global warming is the problem some think, that might be an overly generous estimate.

Intelligence doesn't do much good if we make our species extinct, does it?
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
ngc1514
Jul 2 2006, 06:34 PM
cmoehle
Jul 2 2006, 06:02 PM
When it comes down to it evolution is about genetic alleles, and they what survive. We are just temporary carriers.

Human beings, plants and animals are just gene's reproductive systems.

Yes, better way to put it.

And from that view intelligence may do more harm than good. Instinct, intuition, even emotion may be a better guide to genetic survival.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Teryt, here's an early depiction of your "highest order of life", from the 1579 drawing of the great chain of being from Didacus Valades, Rhetorica Christiana (source)

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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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ngc1514
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Does anyone doubt that, were we able to really with other species, those species would similarly consider themselves the "highest order of life?"

Or, as Douglas Adams so succinctly put it as the world came to an end and the dolphins - the REAL highest order of life on the planet - left, they said "So long and thanks for all the fish!"

"Highest order of life" is not an evolutionary concept. Evolution suggests there is no striving for anything other than reproductive success. It is unfortunate that Genesis 1:26:
Quote:
 
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


has been taken to mean that man can destroy - at will - any other specie on the planet.



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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Another example of application of the Wedge:

"Intelligent design" legislation in New York dies

Quote:
 
When the New York State Assembly's legislative session ended on June 23, 2006, Assembly Bill 8036 died in committee. If enacted, the bill would have required that "all pupils in grades kindergarten through twelve in all public schools in the state ... receive instruction in all aspects of the controversy surrounding evolution and the origins of man." A later provision specified that such instruction would include information about "intelligent design and information effectively challenging the theory of evolution."

The bill was never expected to succeed; its sponsor, Assemblyman Daniel L. Hooker (R-District 127), was reported as explaining that his intention was more to spark discussion than to pass the bill, and as acknowledging that the bill was "religion-based." Moreover, Hooker is not planning on seeking a third term in the Assembly due to his military commitments: he is expected to be on active duty with the Marine Corps until at least early 2007.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Another the Wedgers of at the Design Institute are proud of:

Some Medical Journals Do Publish Pro-Intelligent Design Letters

Letters to editors substituting for peer-review publication of research.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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ngc1514
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Posted ImageEric
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teryt
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ngc1514
Jul 3 2006, 12:51 AM

Intelligence doesn't do much good if we make our species extinct, does it?

True - intelligence doesn't necessarily translate to effectiveness over time.
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jul 3 2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:
 
When the New York State Assembly's legislative session ended on June 23, 2006, Assembly Bill 8036 died in committee. If enacted, the bill would have required that "all pupils in grades kindergarten through twelve in all public schools in the state ... receive instruction in all aspects of the controversy surrounding evolution and the origins of man." A later provision specified that such instruction would include information about "intelligent design and information effectively challenging the theory of evolution."

The bill was never expected to succeed; its sponsor, Assemblyman Daniel L. Hooker (R-District 127), was reported as explaining that his intention was more to spark discussion than to pass the bill, and as acknowledging that the bill was "religion-based." Moreover, Hooker is not planning on seeking a third term in the Assembly due to his military commitments: he is expected to be on active duty with the Marine Corps until at least early 2007.

Too bad. I'm hard pressed to see anything wrong with that! So we hopefully have clarity, but we will likely never have agreement on this issue.
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jul 3 2006, 02:38 PM
Another the Wedgers of at the Design Institute are proud of:

Some Medical Journals Do Publish Pro-Intelligent Design Letters

Letters to editors substituting for peer-review publication of research.

Just wondering: Do "wedgers" give wedgies?
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teryt
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ngc1514
Jul 3 2006, 01:15 PM
Does anyone doubt that, were we able to really with other species, those species would similarly consider themselves the "highest order of life?" 

Or, as Douglas Adams so succinctly put it as the world came to an end and the dolphins -  the REAL highest order of life on the planet - left, they said  "So long and thanks for all the fish!"

"Highest order of life" is not an evolutionary concept.  Evolution suggests there is no striving for anything other than reproductive success.  It is unfortunate that  Genesis 1:26:
Quote:
 
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


has been taken to mean that man can destroy - at will - any other specie on the planet.

If everything was created, then supposedly the creation would realize that we were created in God's image, and made for dominion.

I certainly don't agree that just because we are the highest order of creation, that this is a reason to destroy other species. This is not good stewardship at all!

BTW - Very cute cartoon!
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
"... intelligence doesn't necessarily translate to effectiveness over time."

So Intelligence is not really an attribute or mark of the Intelligent Designer?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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Intelligence & effectiveness could be demonstrated together or apart. I think life is very effective, and in that it shows intelligence.

(Clarity, my friend, not agreement. Although even clarity in this case seems somewhat elusive.)
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Your clarity is contradictory re intelligence and undefined re effectiveness.


"I'm hard pressed to see anything wrong with that!"

With this?
Quote:
 
its sponsor, Assemblyman Daniel L. Hooker (R-District 127), was reported as explaining that his intention was more to spark discussion than to pass the bill, and as acknowledging that the bill was "religion-based."


Emphasis mine, it runs counter the New York State Constitution Bill of Rights.



"Just wondering: Do "wedgers" give wedgies?"

Guess you would have to tell us what Phillip Johnson means:

Quote:
 
If we understand our own times, we will know that we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this,...We call our strategy the "wedge." pg. 91-92, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds Phillip Johnson, 1997

"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."

"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. Its about religion and philosophy."

"The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'"


From Wedge strategy
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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So? People are introduced to Darwin all the time - one is known to be dead, the other's death is arguable.

Look, you know my general viewpoint on the strict materialism of popular, modern science, so I can't find that much wrong with his basic premise (although he does appear to carry it to the extreme).
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