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More Or Less?
Topic Started: Jun 18 2006, 11:34 AM (448 Views)
bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
I haven't voted on this becuase their is no simple yes or no answer, in some areas government is way overstepping their bounds and in others where some of that intervention could be useful and of value they are strangely silent.

If there were a yes and no answer then I could honestly answer the question.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Hmmm, does "useful and of value" define the limits of government? Wouldn't we then have rule of men rather than rule of law?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
Depends on whether it is done by legislation or by edict.

Example, domestic spying may need to be done at times as distasteful as most of us find it to be. Currently it is often being done by edict rather than using the legal means available. I call that rule of man.

Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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abradf2519
Member
I want less government I guess, but I am no where near a liberterian.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
bikemanb
Jun 23 2006, 07:59 AM
Depends on whether it is done by legislation or by edict.

Example, domestic spying may need to be done at times as distasteful as most of us find it to be. Currently it is often being done by edict rather than using the legal means available. I call that rule of man.

That's true. I think we're just looking at different types of usurpation of powers. We can all also site cases the courts overstep their constitutional boundaries. And so can the legislature.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
Member
OK, where would you all eliminate the size of government?
Here is a list (with my personal suggestions):

Department of Agriculture (USDA) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Commerce (DOC)
Department of Defense (DOD)
Department of Education (ED) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Energy (DOE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) - Eliminate partially
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Justice (DOJ)
Department of Labor (DOL) - Eliminate Completely
Department of State (DOS)
Department of the Interior (DOI) - Eliminate Completely (give lands owned to the states)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Transportation (DOT)
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

Even after these broad strokes, I still didn't shrink it by much....
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
What's your criteria for selection?

I'd simply run them all through the sieve of enumerated constitutional powers and see what falls through, what doesn't toss it. --OK, not toss it, hand it back to the states or the people.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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Missing in Action Member
abradf2519
Jun 23 2006, 04:53 PM
OK, where would you all eliminate the size of government?
Here is a list (with my personal suggestions):

Department of Agriculture (USDA) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Commerce (DOC)
Department of Defense (DOD)
Department of Education (ED) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Energy (DOE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) - Eliminate partially
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) - Eliminate Completely
Department of Justice (DOJ)
Department of Labor (DOL) - Eliminate Completely
Department of State (DOS)
Department of the Interior (DOI) - Eliminate Completely (give lands owned to the states)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Transportation (DOT)
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

Even after these broad strokes, I still didn't shrink it by much....

I can agree with most all of these! And, as Chris pointed out, if we went by what the Constitution empowers, several more would likely be gone.
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

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abradf2519
Member
cmoehle
Jun 23 2006, 11:19 AM
What's your criteria for selection?

I'd simply run them all through the sieve of enumerated constitutional powers and see what falls through, what doesn't toss it. --OK, not toss it, hand it back to the states or the people.

Criteria:
Does the thing being managed need to be managed at a federal level?

Department of Agriculture (USDA) - Eliminate Completely - I think this is definetly something that should be managed by states, except for the purpose of applying standards for food quality.

Department of Education (ED) - Eliminate Completely - Again, all we really need is a set of national standards.

Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) - Eliminate partially - I believe Social Security falls under this, and you couldn't eliminate it even if you wanted to. Anything else this dept should deal with should be pandemic in nature.

Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) - Eliminate Completely - This is not needed at all, local governments are the ones that need to deal with this.

Department of Labor (DOL) - Eliminate Completely - We don't need this at all, exept to deal with the federal government workers union.

Department of the Interior (DOI) - Eliminate Completely (give lands owned to the states) - Why can't the states manage parks in their own boarders?

Problem is, I probably didn't even eliminate 5% of federal spending.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Right, I don't disagree with the selections, and like Teryt sees, would want more. But I think the criteria important.

"Does the thing being managed need to be managed at a federal level?"

Again, not that I disagree, but I fear my definition or specification for that criteria might differ some from yours and his and hers. So then you have a relativist, subjective choice to make, and that leads to political mischief.

Start with the Constitution. Then apply your criteria to what's left.


(See Getting America Right for some other criteria.)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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