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"value" Training
Topic Started: Jun 2 2006, 10:25 AM (333 Views)
ngc1514
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As I walked by a USAToday news rack, noticed the headline that US troops, in response to the alleged November murder of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians, would receive "values training." Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy!

Other than the question of scale, what is the moral difference between flying airplanes into the WTC and gunning down civilians in Iraq?

Rumsfeld says:

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We know that 99.9% of our forces conduct themselves in an exemplary manner. We also know that in conflicts things that shouldn't happen, do happen," he said.


Couldn't we say the same thing about 99.9% of the Moslems in the world? This is justification for murder?

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"When you're in a combat theater dealing with enemy combatants who don't abide by the law of war, who do acts of indecency, soldiers become stressed, they become fearful," said Brig. Gen. Donald Campbell, the chief of staff at the top U.S. military headquarters in Baghdad. "It's very difficult to determine in some cases on this battlefield who is a combatant and who is a civilian.


If our soldiers can't tell the difference between unarmed women and children and some dude popping off rounds with his AK... why in the hell are we there?

Can't tell the terrorists from the good guys without a program.

Posted ImageEric
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
On another forum some folks are arguing that this should have been covered up. The blame is being placed totally on the press for bringing it to light. I think that reflects negatively on the "values" of those posters..
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Nixon covered up. Clinton covered up. Not that I would insinuate any sort of association.

O'Reilly justified it similar to Rumsfeld. Said it's happened in other wars, using WWII Malmedy as example of American solders murdering Germans. Wonder who does his research?

The military is investigating. I believe they'll do the right thing.

I hear a second incident has emerged.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
Following O'Reilly's, and others', logic that means that since there have been civilians who have murdered civilians throughout history, Murder must be excusable. Right?

It seems to me that such logic and reasoning is simply indicative of a severe paucity of a personal value system based on any kind of principles.
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
When I read it, I thought this to be a rather interesting take on Haditha.

Haditha signals beginning of end of Iraq war

Some excerpts:

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Comparisons are being made between the alleged massacre — it's still being investigated — in the Iraqi town of Haditha of some 24 civilians by U.S. Marines with the killing of Vietnamese civilians by U.S. troops in the village of Mai Lai in 1968 in the middle of the Vietnam War.

Those comparisons are invalid: What reportedly happened in Haditha is far worse.


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What allegedly was done at Haditha was not done by raw draftees, or conscripts, but by elite professionals — that is, by highly trained and highly disciplined troops.


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The second critical differences between the two outrages is that the alleged crime in Haditha happened after Mai Lai took place.

This means that all the publicity about that earlier crime, and all the shame so many Americans then felt about it and expressed so clearly and loudly, and all the systems and controls instituted by the military to make sure it could never happened again, made not the slightest bit of difference.

Indeed, it appears that one new practice instituted by the U.S. military since the Mai Lai massacre amounts to a technique for covering up crimes like it. This relates to the way the cover story about the alleged Haditha massacre began to fall apart.


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What Mai Lai did was to turn American citizens against the Vietnam War by making them realize what the war was doing to their own troops. This was that it was demoralizing and debasing otherwise decent young Americans, out of fear, out of hatred, out of sheer despair at being trapped in an unwinnable war — because it involved, inevitably, killing many innocent citizens as well as actual insurgents or guerrillas.

The alleged Haditha massacre, once its full details are made public, will undoubtedly push American public opinion toward the same tipping point.

Abu Graib. Guantanamo. Haditha. And most probably many others which now will come to light. We are witnessing the beginning of the end of the Iraq war.
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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ngc1514
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cmoehle
Jun 2 2006, 01:10 PM
Nixon covered up. Clinton covered up. Not that I would insinuate any sort of association.

O'Reilly justified it similar to Rumsfeld. Said it's happened in other wars, using WWII Malmedy as example of American solders murdering Germans. Wonder who does his research?

The military is investigating. I believe they'll do the right thing.

I hear a second incident has emerged.

Malmedy was the massacre of US troops by the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge.

Soldiers shooting other soldiers, even those who have surrendered, is not the same as shooting unarmed civilians. An amazingly few prisoners of war were taken by either side in the South Pacific since both our side and the Japanese killed most of those surrendering. That's war.

Shooting children, whether at My Lai or Haditha, is murder and knocks all the nice moral underpinnings to which we like the lay claim when it turns out we have done so.

Wonder if Messers. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld feel like they need some values training as well?
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Just like with Abu Ghraib, this will not rise that high.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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ngc1514
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cmoehle
Jun 2 2006, 02:30 PM
Just like with Abu Ghraib, this will not rise that high.

I'm sure the buck will stop, as it did with Calley, with some lowly platoon officer or NCO. What I want to know is - who knew about it and when did they know? Has this been just drifting around the ozone since November or has someone tried to cover it up? (Shades of Watergate!)
Posted ImageEric
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campingken
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It looks like BUSH'S "Non-War on Terror" is unraveling. There was a recent anti- American riot in Afghanistan and it sure looks like our "leaders" covered up the Iraqi murders for as long as possible. Thank GOD for a free press but no doubt when all is said and done a few E-6's will go to prison and Bush will pass out "FREEDOM MEDALS" to everyone at the top who was involved.

The saddest part is the involved Marines will have to spend the rest on their lives dealing with the fact that they are child killers. The older they get the harder it will be to justify to themselves what they did.......

So much for winning their hearts and minds.

Ken
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
cmoehle
Jun 2 2006, 10:10 AM
Nixon covered up. Clinton covered up.

And Reagan just "couldn't remember".... :whistle:
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"Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
And a 3rd set of allegations surface.

War just ain't what it used to be.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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pentax
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cmoehle
Jun 2 2006, 01:54 PM

War just ain't what it used to be.

Maybe, but don't let it get you down - you're not alone in this war.


Taliban to Canadians: Get out or face death

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Canada, which has about 2,300 troops in Afghanistan, has no plans to leave before 2009. In fact, top Canadian Forces generals have suggested that the military mission could extend until 2016......  A senior Taliban military commander has issued a stark warning to Canada: Get out of Afghanistan and stop acting like Americans, or we will kill your soldiers, one by one.



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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Afghanistan is getting worse too.

We're all in it together.

This is all very regrettable, and needs to be dealt with, but I don't think it says anything about who we are or why we are there, though some, partisans on both sides, will try to make it so.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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tomdrobin
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I heard a guest speaker remark the other day on one of the NPR shows. He said, "WWII is the last war we participated in where we purposely inflicted the horrors of war on the civilian population of the enemy". Oddly enough it is the last major conflict we managed to win. The terrorists/insurgents understand the psycological advantage of killing enemy civilians. And, the advantage of blending into the population of civilians for refuge and hiding, to be able to emerge and attack without detection.

Our advanced moral compass in recent years demands that we safeguard against killing non combatants. But, that has become an increasingly difficult task. The Marines knew Hadifa was extremely hostile territory, where the insurgents could blend into and be supported and concealed by the local populace. Numerous ambush type attacks had occurred in the form of roadside bombs, IED's etc. Most likely the Marines involved had been stressed to the breaking point and were ready to inflict pain upon the populace non combatant or not. Killing civilians isn't moral. But, war itself is not a moral exercise. The bottom line in any war, is the winner is not the most humane or honorable. But, the one who inflicts enough pain upon the enemy and those who harbor and support the enemy to cause them to no longer want to continue the fight. Without that philosophy, you might as well pack up your troops and go home and assume the defensive position, because there is no way in hell you are going to prevail.

What is most important? Being honerable? Or prevailing? I think modern day Japan and Germany are good answers to that question.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
IIRC we bombed Hanoi and Haiphong.

We won our independence through what the British deemed ucivilized warfare. --I am not comparing us to terrorist! :faint:

Still your point is valid as we do try to fight precision wars that avoid civilian casualties. I think because we are, on the whole, an honorable people. That's why we look on the incidendents with a sense of horror: This should not happen!


If it happened. Remember it will be years before the truth comes out, if it ever does.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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