| Welcome to Campfire Soapbox. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| "value" Training | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 2 2006, 10:25 AM (333 Views) | |
| ngc1514 | Jun 2 2006, 10:25 AM Post #1 |
![]()
Member
|
As I walked by a USAToday news rack, noticed the headline that US troops, in response to the alleged November murder of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians, would receive "values training." Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy! Other than the question of scale, what is the moral difference between flying airplanes into the WTC and gunning down civilians in Iraq? Rumsfeld says:
Couldn't we say the same thing about 99.9% of the Moslems in the world? This is justification for murder?
If our soldiers can't tell the difference between unarmed women and children and some dude popping off rounds with his AK... why in the hell are we there? Can't tell the terrorists from the good guys without a program. |
Eric
| |
![]() |
|
| Colo_Crawdad | Jun 2 2006, 10:45 AM Post #2 |
![]()
Lowell
|
On another forum some folks are arguing that this should have been covered up. The blame is being placed totally on the press for bringing it to light. I think that reflects negatively on the "values" of those posters.. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Jun 2 2006, 11:10 AM Post #3 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Nixon covered up. Clinton covered up. Not that I would insinuate any sort of association. O'Reilly justified it similar to Rumsfeld. Said it's happened in other wars, using WWII Malmedy as example of American solders murdering Germans. Wonder who does his research? The military is investigating. I believe they'll do the right thing. I hear a second incident has emerged. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| Colo_Crawdad | Jun 2 2006, 11:16 AM Post #4 |
![]()
Lowell
|
Following O'Reilly's, and others', logic that means that since there have been civilians who have murdered civilians throughout history, Murder must be excusable. Right? It seems to me that such logic and reasoning is simply indicative of a severe paucity of a personal value system based on any kind of principles. |
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
![]() |
|
| Colo_Crawdad | Jun 2 2006, 11:48 AM Post #5 |
![]()
Lowell
|
When I read it, I thought this to be a rather interesting take on Haditha. Haditha signals beginning of end of Iraq war Some excerpts:
|
| "WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo | |
![]() |
|
| ngc1514 | Jun 2 2006, 12:23 PM Post #6 |
![]()
Member
|
Malmedy was the massacre of US troops by the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. Soldiers shooting other soldiers, even those who have surrendered, is not the same as shooting unarmed civilians. An amazingly few prisoners of war were taken by either side in the South Pacific since both our side and the Japanese killed most of those surrendering. That's war. Shooting children, whether at My Lai or Haditha, is murder and knocks all the nice moral underpinnings to which we like the lay claim when it turns out we have done so. Wonder if Messers. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld feel like they need some values training as well? |
Eric
| |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Jun 2 2006, 12:30 PM Post #7 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Just like with Abu Ghraib, this will not rise that high. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| ngc1514 | Jun 2 2006, 12:38 PM Post #8 |
![]()
Member
|
I'm sure the buck will stop, as it did with Calley, with some lowly platoon officer or NCO. What I want to know is - who knew about it and when did they know? Has this been just drifting around the ozone since November or has someone tried to cover it up? (Shades of Watergate!) |
Eric
| |
![]() |
|
| campingken | Jun 2 2006, 12:46 PM Post #9 |
|
Member
|
It looks like BUSH'S "Non-War on Terror" is unraveling. There was a recent anti- American riot in Afghanistan and it sure looks like our "leaders" covered up the Iraqi murders for as long as possible. Thank GOD for a free press but no doubt when all is said and done a few E-6's will go to prison and Bush will pass out "FREEDOM MEDALS" to everyone at the top who was involved. The saddest part is the involved Marines will have to spend the rest on their lives dealing with the fact that they are child killers. The older they get the harder it will be to justify to themselves what they did....... So much for winning their hearts and minds. Ken |
![]() |
|
| pentax | Jun 2 2006, 01:32 PM Post #10 |
![]()
Kamloops - BC Interior
|
And Reagan just "couldn't remember"....
|
![]() (thumbnail) ![]() "Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!" | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Jun 2 2006, 02:54 PM Post #11 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
And a 3rd set of allegations surface. War just ain't what it used to be. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| pentax | Jun 2 2006, 07:07 PM Post #12 |
![]()
Kamloops - BC Interior
|
Maybe, but don't let it get you down - you're not alone in this war. Taliban to Canadians: Get out or face death
|
![]() (thumbnail) ![]() "Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!" | |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Jun 2 2006, 09:29 PM Post #13 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
Afghanistan is getting worse too. We're all in it together. This is all very regrettable, and needs to be dealt with, but I don't think it says anything about who we are or why we are there, though some, partisans on both sides, will try to make it so. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| tomdrobin | Jun 2 2006, 09:32 PM Post #14 |
|
Member
|
I heard a guest speaker remark the other day on one of the NPR shows. He said, "WWII is the last war we participated in where we purposely inflicted the horrors of war on the civilian population of the enemy". Oddly enough it is the last major conflict we managed to win. The terrorists/insurgents understand the psycological advantage of killing enemy civilians. And, the advantage of blending into the population of civilians for refuge and hiding, to be able to emerge and attack without detection. Our advanced moral compass in recent years demands that we safeguard against killing non combatants. But, that has become an increasingly difficult task. The Marines knew Hadifa was extremely hostile territory, where the insurgents could blend into and be supported and concealed by the local populace. Numerous ambush type attacks had occurred in the form of roadside bombs, IED's etc. Most likely the Marines involved had been stressed to the breaking point and were ready to inflict pain upon the populace non combatant or not. Killing civilians isn't moral. But, war itself is not a moral exercise. The bottom line in any war, is the winner is not the most humane or honorable. But, the one who inflicts enough pain upon the enemy and those who harbor and support the enemy to cause them to no longer want to continue the fight. Without that philosophy, you might as well pack up your troops and go home and assume the defensive position, because there is no way in hell you are going to prevail. What is most important? Being honerable? Or prevailing? I think modern day Japan and Germany are good answers to that question. |
![]() |
|
| cmoehle | Jun 3 2006, 07:32 AM Post #15 |
|
Chris - San Antonio TX
|
IIRC we bombed Hanoi and Haiphong. We won our independence through what the British deemed ucivilized warfare. --I am not comparing us to terrorist! Still your point is valid as we do try to fight precision wars that avoid civilian casualties. I think because we are, on the whole, an honorable people. That's why we look on the incidendents with a sense of horror: This should not happen! If it happened. Remember it will be years before the truth comes out, if it ever does. |
|
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Soapbox · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2













1:02 PM Jul 11