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| Genetics | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 30 2006, 05:14 AM (252 Views) | |
| cmoehle | May 30 2006, 05:14 AM Post #1 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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The title of the piece ought to be enough: Human Rights and Human Enhancement: Is genetic modification of people moral? But some views from the article:
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| tomdrobin | May 30 2006, 09:34 PM Post #2 |
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I'm not worried about Madonna clones, or sports clones. I would like to see genetic modification to ehance the mental capabilities of many in our society who are stuck in the lower socio economic groups because of limited mental ability. The way it works currently they breed at will and their offspring are very often a debt on society. |
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| cmoehle | May 31 2006, 04:11 AM Post #3 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Not sure it's mental capabilities holding the poor back, but government segregating them economically with programs like welfare. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cruiser | Jun 2 2006, 01:20 PM Post #4 |
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The fact is, that those individuals who have low mental capacity as a rule, will stay at the lowest level of financial success . This is a fact and only flaming liberals will dispute this. |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| cmoehle | Jun 2 2006, 01:34 PM Post #5 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Truisms aren't very valuable, nor is poisoning the well of discussion. Financial success is more luck than finesse. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| tomdrobin | Jun 2 2006, 09:49 PM Post #6 |
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Member
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Chris Then what you are saying is, if I understand you correctly, that we should not subsidize the poor (ie; welfare, food stamps etc.). The result as I see it would be either they would have to take their abilities, ambition and whatever else, and use them to be self sufficient or starve to death. An excellent example of survival of the fittest. But, in our advanced state of civility and humaness could we in good concience do that? I don't think so. Better to nueter those who are a debt on society with the expectation that their offspring probably would propogate their intelligence, motivation level etc. But, of course the ACLU would be all over that one too. Brace yourself it is not going to get any better. quote from Chris: "Financial success is more luck than finesse." I would have to disagree with that statement. While luck does play a part in it, being successful requires a lot of different disciplines/skills. IMO intelligence, ambition, personality, and more all play a part. One of the most important determinants IMO is self discipline. And that I believe comes from discipline itself , which is not an instinctive behavior, but must be taught and encouraged by good parents and teachers. |
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| cmoehle | Jun 3 2006, 07:26 AM Post #7 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Tom, we need to move in that direction, get back to more self-reliance. The Welfare Reform Act of '96 (iirc) showed it can be done with positive results. Regretfully our conservative, er, Republican Congress failed to renew it. The only thing subsidizing people or corporations accomplishes is increased dependency. Tom, Bill Gates is not all that smarter than you or me. Bill Walton too. They just had a vision and were willing to risk everything on it. Sports. Financial success simply means earning beyond your needs rather than living beyond your means. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Lon Frank | Jun 3 2006, 10:58 AM Post #8 |
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Member
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It's interesting that this thread, like our society in general, has drifted into a type of value, based upon monitary worth of an individual. To take on this easy shot first, let me post pictures of my week. I just spent 6 days with about 40 handicapped people at camp with my son. Some of the 'kids' were in their 50's, some were teens. Some worked in the kitchen, fixing my meals; some helped me at cleaning the pool each morning. Some worried when we talked, that they would never become 'valuable' people - doctors, lawyers, teachers. I tried to tell them that value is an inside thing - who you are, rather than what you learn to do, or how much you earn. Here are some pictures which speak more clearly than do my words. Look at the faces, the open and unconcealed love in smiles and laughter. Tell me if 'genetically deficient' individuals are a debt on our society. Look closely, and decide for yourself if we might somehow be poorer except for them: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Now, to the harder subject which Chris' original post hinted at. As the father of a genetically handicapped son, I've often wondered what I'd do, should a genetic 'fix' become suddenly available. What would I think, if my own son could suddenly become no longer retarded in mind, no longer suffer the physical effects of his abnormal cells? I cherish him as he is, and I find his value and beauty with each day, but then, for his sake, would I have him become 'normal'? I suppose no parent or anyone who cares for a handicapped person, would deny them the opportunity to be more normal, more accepted in society, more like us. So, in extension, wouldn't we as well, welcome genetic engineering for a generation to come? Wouldn't we welcome smarter, healthier, even more 'moral' children? Finally, the flip side of my particular coin. The Nazi program had a system for genetic engineering of the human race. Their technology was much simplier, as was their philosophy. It was based not on cellular restructuring, but rather on inceneration, on ovens which belched smoke into an ever-increasing darkness of night. Would I have my son 'fixed'? For his sake, I suppose so. But I would miss him, and I would be a much poorer individual without that which he teaches me daily. |
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| TexasShadow | Jun 3 2006, 11:47 AM Post #9 |
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Jane
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Lon.... thanks for sharing some pix of your son's camp experience with us. Looks like he had a great bunch of people around him... |
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| cmoehle | Jun 3 2006, 11:55 AM Post #10 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Lon, you make a great point, three of them. One, it's not really about money, enhancing intellectual or physical abilities says little about valuing people for the whole person they are, and such value judgments should not justify social engineering. But as science advances we must meet these questions head on. (Hope you were smiling much as your son!) |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Lon Frank | Jun 4 2006, 11:10 AM Post #11 |
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Member
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Chris, none of those photos are of Kit, but may as well have been. He grinned like a possum eating a praline the whole week. When I went back to the little RV each night, my jaw was actually tired from smiling. I took about 300 photos, and it was the easiest thing in the world - all my subjects were constantly smiling and every one was beautiful! It's funny how a kid like Kit can touch those around him. Mentally retarded, speechless and nearly blind, he connects somehow at a more human level, a more emotional one. His counselors waited on the last day to tell him 'goodbye' last. For good reason, as I noticed. First they hugged, then a chin started to quiver, then all three were blubbering like babies. I said, 'but, there's another group coming on Sunday'. One young woman clutching my son, said through her tears, 'yeah, but not any like Kit'. Kinda made me cry a little, too. One person on the forum sent a gift to the camp when he heard about Kit going there this summer. His donation made it possible for one of these kids, or one in the next few weeks, to have the opportunity of camp; to laugh with new friends, shoot balloons with BB guns, to play ball, fish and swim and laugh again. His gift will touch lives and hearts more deeply than he could ever have imagined, and will live on in the memory of a child whom he will probably never meet. And, I imagine, that's just the reward he was hoping for. ![]() That's Kit, with his tongue out, racing his favorite counselor. Now you know why he was always smiling! |
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| passinthru | Jun 4 2006, 12:17 PM Post #12 |
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John - Gainesville, FL
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It would seem valuable to be able to remove greed, selfishness, meanness, and dishonesty from humans; that would be more valuable than eliminating lower mental capability. |
| Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money... | |
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| wolfgoddess | Jun 4 2006, 05:53 PM Post #13 |
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Party Leader
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Lon, those photo's touched my heart. thanks
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| bikemanb | Jun 4 2006, 06:01 PM Post #14 |
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Liberal Conservative
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I have very mixed feelings about this subject, I see the potential good that could come but I also know enough science to realize we are stretching our limits of understanding and the results from the movie the Andromeda Strain comes to mind. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| tomdrobin | Jun 4 2006, 09:53 PM Post #15 |
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Member
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No doubt the innocence of the mentally handicapped is much like the innocents of small children. But, IMO it would be wrong to deny them the opportunity to become "normal" functioning adults if that were ever possible. You wouldn't stop loving your son if he weren't handicapped, you would just have a different relationship. Chris I will concede on an intellectual level that perhaps Sam Walton & Bill Gates aren't any smarter than you and I. But, they do possess vision as you said, and the willingness to work very hard and takes risks. That combined with a mind that can see the organizational model from a higher viewpoint. |
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