Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Campfire Soapbox. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Immigration And The Law
Topic Started: May 28 2006, 03:48 PM (368 Views)
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Quote:
 
America had illegal immigration 20 years ago, and it has it now, and it'll have it 20 years from now. It will be with us as long as employers hire illegal immigrants because they work cheaper and harder than natives.

That's not about the law of man. It's about the law of nature.

America Will Always Have Illegal Immigration
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Banandangees
Member
Quote:
 
Enforceable, Sustainable, Compassionate
By MICHAEL R. BLOOMBERG (NYC Mayor)
May 24, 2006; Page A14 WSJ

In every decade there is a critical domestic issue that shapes our political life for decades to come. In the 1960s, it was civil rights; in the 1970s, the Watergate crisis; in the 1980s, crime and drugs; and in the 1990s, welfare dependency. Today, it is immigration.

In New York City, 500,000 of our more than three million immigrants are here illegally. Although they broke the law by illegally crossing our borders or overstaying their visas, our economy would be a shell of itself had they not, and it would collapse if they were deported. The same holds true for the nation. Yet in a post-9/11 world, the federal government can no longer wink at illegal immigration. ..............


If what the mayor of NYC writes is true, what does that say about the state (fragileness) of NYC and of our national economies?

Since the illegals are coming together, demonstrating, and realizing a form of representation via the greed for power by one party or the other, once they get the foothold they need, what stops them from collectively bargaining for higher wages, thus doing away with the cheap labor that keeps NYC's economy going (and the nations)? Seems that under our two party system, a bad situation seems to get worse faster than a good situation gets better. Meanwhile China's economy is exploding,
Banan
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Quote:
 
our economy would be a shell of itself had they not, and it would collapse if they were deported.


i'm getting kinda tired of hearing this because it's not honest.

what this really means is that business people are saying they can't do business without cheap (read slave) labor.
that's what the plantation people said pre civil war.
that's what people said when whatshisname was organizing the lettuce pickers.
it's what ranchers say when they justify hiring wetbacks.

this is not to say that ALL business people pay slave wages...
but it's the ones that are that are saying our economy would collapse.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Right now, despite the doom and gloom popular opinion holds, is actually doing quite well, though the job market could be better.

Still, economies are fragile things, though I doubt sending all illegals home would devastate the economy, we would all feel it and many would whine about it.

Collective bargain is to be expected next from our government who just can't seem to let the market set its own wages.

China's doing well because it is liberalizing its economy, while we're over-regulating ours.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Jane, Mexicans choose to work for the wages. No one foces them to do so. Why would they choose that, it pays better than what they can make back home. Did you know you can work all day in a McDonalds in Maxico City and at the end of the day not have earned enough money to buy a Happy Meal?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
well, sure, that's why they come
because our slave wages are better than their slave wages.

doesn't make us right, though.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Slave wages? It's what the market pays. Businesses compete, they don't collaborate to set wages--that's what government does. Businesses pay what the market pays them, plus some profit for their risked investment.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
roscoe
Member
I suppose when a lot of college grads go job hunting and find our wages a lot lower than what they can survive on things might change.Too bad for the land of oppurtunity. Blame it on your cheap parents who needed to globalize their grandchildrens future.

Suck it up Junior now you and your wife have to work just to eat. (ALL DAY FOR A HAPPY MEAL. OUCH ) :biting: :biting: :biting:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tomdrobin
Member
Another Quote From Link: "But on the big question -- whether it was a mistake to grant amnesty to all those people -- Simpson offers no apologies.

"I don't have any qualms about 3 million people from 93 countries coming forward,'' he said. "I like that. And I still see those people out in the street and it pleases me greatly.''

So what do we do about the 11 million to 12 million here currently?

"You have to do something to give them a legal status," he said. "They might have to put up five grand or two grand or 150 bucks but they've got to do something to come into one of the best countries on Earth.''

I think Simpson concedes too much to his critics. It's not fair to say that IRCA failed. It's true that the law didn't stop illegal immigration. But no law is going to do that. " (end of quote)

I think the author shows his predjudices are on the side of the illegals. Sure we had illegal immigration 20 years ago. But not the scope that we have now. It has grown to such proportions that it is a big problem. Amnesty for the 3 million in 1986 couldn't help but encourage more illegal immigration with the hope of the same deal. I heard it mentioned on an NPR discussion the other day that only 10 employers had been fined for hiring illegals in the last year. That clearly shows that laws against hiring the undocumented are basically being ignored. With no penalties and no risk other than the dangers of crossing the border through the desert, it is easy to see why illegal immigration has surged. Cheap hard working labor sounds like a good deal. But, it is not without a price. Government paid healthcare and child care for low income illegals, has and will continue to strain state and local budgets affected. And, what do we do when succeeding generations who have had a taste of the good life refuse to work hard for cheap? Step up the pace of immigration so we have more of the same. Eventually overcrowding and high unemployment and an ever increasing underclass will be the results.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Actually the author disagrees with Simpson and holds a strong view on holding employers responsible:
Quote:
 
On this point, my professor and I disagree. He insists he had to put in that "knowingly" qualifier to give employers a fair shake and to get the support of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (it didn't work).

I say it was an invitation for employers to play dumb, and that for 20 years, many of them have continued to hire illegal immigrants and then played it off like Sgt. Schultz: "I know nothing,''



And the class argument simply doesn't hold. What creates poverty is government welfare and regulation. Free market capitalism benefits all.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tomdrobin
Member
cmoehle
May 29 2006, 03:38 AM
And the class argument simply doesn't hold. What creates poverty is government welfare and regulation. Free market capitalism benefits all.

I would agree that free market capitalism is more productive and benefits all. But, you have to realize that free market capitalism is based on supply and demand. If we import a high amount of unskilled labor, while at the same time demand for unskilled labor is decreasing. We will end up with not just extremely low wages for the unskilled, but lots of unemployed. Unless you are willing to discontinue, welfare, medicaid and just let everyone shift for themselves and survive on their own, it is going to cost the taxpayers money to support them and their offspring. Each of those unskilled laborers also represents a vote. And, when enough of them are on the taxpayers payroll with voting rights, they will use that voting power to sustain the entitlements.

We should give priority to the immigration of those who possess skills we need, not merely looking for cheap help. That will ultimately come back to bite us in the arsh.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bikemanb
Member Avatar
Liberal Conservative
Quote:
 
And the class argument simply doesn't hold. What creates poverty is government welfare and regulation.


Not!

Poverty has been with us since the dawn of human civilization.

Good spin though. :spin:
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Would be helpful when you charge spin you show it so.

Poverty has been with us since the dawn of civiliation? Not real sure what you mean by that. Poverty as opposed to what? Some picked fewer plants to eat, caught fewer animals to eat?

Explain how welfare, social or corporate, and regulation, tariffs or quotas, builds wealth.


Tom "I would agree that free market capitalism is more productive and benefits all. But, you have to realize that free market capitalism is based on supply and demand. If we import a high amount of unskilled labor, while at the same time demand for unskilled labor is decreasing. We will end up with not just extremely low wages for the unskilled, but lots of unemployed."

But Americans are not working those jobs. If they were, they would supply the demand. They don't, so Mexicans do.

And if we stop immigration and force higher wages, who is going to pay? We are. But won't that force demand down? Then businesses go out of business and we're in a real fix.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bikemanb
Member Avatar
Liberal Conservative
Quote:
 
And the class argument simply doesn't hold. What creates poverty is government welfare and regulation. Free market capitalism benefits all.


If you can make (or in this case quote) sweeping assertions without factual backup so can I. :)

However, I do suppose all those starving serfs in Middle Age Europe were living in the lap of luxury, and all the people living in the slums of Rome, Athens and Alexanderia during the imperial age or the slums of London during the 1700-1800's were all victims of excessive government handouts. (Just to name a few instances of extreme poverty in recorded human history)

I don't object to to the fact that government programs may encourage some people to milk the system, but government programs are not the major source of poverty in recorded history of mankind, economic dislocations due to market changes, climate changes, urbanization, industrialization, automation/technology shifts have been the main causes.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Bill, I gave examples beyond that one statement.


"...starving serfs in Middle Age Europe...people living in the slums of Rome, Athens and Alexanderia...imperial age or the slums of London during the 1700-1800's...."

All great examples of what I'm talking about, state-run (-ruined) economies of merchantilism, state welfare and regulation of the economy, little has changed--except the emergence of capitalism which lifted us above those impoverished states.

Economic dislocations produce local and momentary cells of poverty. Economies are nowadays global. Aid--funded by wealth--from around the globe is sent to relieve the dislocated.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Soapbox · Next Topic »
Add Reply