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Call To Close Guantanamo; Is the war over?
Topic Started: May 23 2006, 09:12 PM (479 Views)
tomdrobin
Member
My appologies, couldn't find a link. But, I listened to a discussion on NPR about this today. It seems some influential British politician, a UN committe and amnesty international have called for the closing of our holding facility at Guantanamo.

The other side of the issue was presented by a very astute gentleman (can't remember his name). His point was that when there is a war. Prisoners are taken and held until the duration of the war, and then set free. Prisoners of war are those that are easily identifyable as on the opposing side (uniforms ID etc.). And, there is strict protocal by the Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war. Enemy combatants, while they also may be held until the end of the war, are not afforded the rights of prisoners of war, as they tend to be covert operators without uniforms ID etc.

The gentleman from amnesty international (I believe), argued the prisoners held at Guantanamo should have due process. The way I understand it, that is not so, as they are enemy combatants in an ongoing war. Why turn them loose before the end of hostilities,and have to fight them again?

Is the war on terror so loosely defined that it is not a real war strictly speaking? And, should enemy combatants from the war on terror be tried in civilian courts? One argument for closing Guantanamo was that the "war" was over, once we had control of afghanistan. Is this a good idea. Or do we stay in the ongoing war status until we have totally iradicated El Quida, it's leadership?
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TexasShadow
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Jane
well, the problem is, we don't know if the guantanamo prisoners are member of al quida or just pows.
and
if they're al quida, we'd be turning loose people who will turn around and do harm again.

so
I don't know what to do with the hard cases.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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DocInBird
Member
Jane, we now have a "secret police" like we accused the USSR of having years ago. we have secret prisons where people go and dissappear. No one is allowed to know that they are in these prisons. they have no legal rights. Bush and Rumsfeld have decided that they can make any citizen disappear for any reason with no accountability.

One of Bush's profs at Yale put it best. He said everyone else read Orwell's 1984 as litterature, but this moron saw it as a manual.

How many decades do you think it will take to recover from this secret police state?

--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Doc
re secret police and 1984......
yes, it's certainly arrived, including the doublespeak.........

i often wonder if they're not using the tv to brainwash us... i forget what they call it, sticking propaganda pix inbetween the regular pix.....
wouldn't put it past them

i do not anticipate an end to it, because i suscribe to the conspiracy theories of
Taylor Caldwell.
GW and Rummy are just puppets for the ventriloquists. :)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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tomdrobin
Member
DocInBird
May 24 2006, 11:10 AM
Jane, we now have a "secret police" like we accused the USSR of having years ago. we have secret prisons where people go and dissappear. No one is allowed to know that they are in these prisons. they have no legal rights. Bush and Rumsfeld have decided that they can make any citizen disappear for any reason with no accountability.

One of Bush's profs at Yale put it best. He said everyone else read Orwell's 1984 as litterature, but this moron saw it as a manual.

How many decades do you think it will take to recover from this secret police state?

Doc
Have you forgot the McCarthy Hearings. France Gary powers capture by the ruskies etc. etc. Fact is we have for some time been involved in covert activity. Much of which would have been an embarrasment if it got out. What about Iran contra, the bay of pigs. The list is never ending. That is what we do to promote our security and self interest in the world. Problem is, now days the intelligence community leaks like a sive. And, reporters are chomping at the bit to release classified material, sometimes to the detriment of our image. Those who think we have always been the honerable white knight in shining armor are living in an idealistic world that never exhisted. Now days national interest seems to be trumped by politics, which is a shame IMO.

Jane
I don't believe anyone held at Guantanamo could be classified as a prisoner of war. To be afforded that status under the Geneva conventions, one must be clearly identifiable as a member of the other side (recognizable uniforms, military ID like dog tags etc.). From my time in the army I believe POW's are only obligated to furnish their name rank and serial numbers. Problem with unlawful combatants is, they can gain a distinct covert advantage by not adhering to the uniform and ID requirements of Geneva. But, that also prohibits them from being protected by agreements of the Geneva convention.
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DocInBird
Member
The first question is why the US even has a military base in Cuba, just 90 miles away from the US. Perhaps this made sense during the Spanish--American war, but what function does it serve now? It is because it is not in the US, and thus is not subject to the laws of the US.

There are US citizens being held there, deprived of their rights as citizens. Due process of law does not exist in this totalitarian administration. That's why Guantanamo and other off-shore prisons exist. People here would object to torture and murder of inmates in our prisons (not that it doesn't happen). Did you ever wonder where we find the people to go torture people? Did our government really go track "little Johnny from down the street" that tortured cats and offer him a job?

Tom: Why is the US the only first-world country in the world to begin a policy to ignore the Geneva Convention? Why are we the only first-world country to not supply troops for UN peace keeping operations?

Think about this. The UN could have said to Sadaam, "Take your loot and go find asylum in some other country, or we will come get you and take you to the international court in Holland. Once you leave, the UN will supervise the election process." This strategy would have worked. It has worked many times in the past. Instead, what did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld decide to do?

What was the military advantage in bombing every school, hospital, water filtration plant, sewage facility, electric plant in the country? We were using "smart bombs", so this was an obvious policy decision, not an incredible series of accidents. Our grandchildren might discover the answers, if the documents haven't been shredded by then.

Re: Afghanistan, what was our justification for invading them? Our inept intelligence services thought Osama might be there and we demanded that their government apprehend him and turn him over to us. Theyrefused. How many times have other countries asked us to apprehend criminals and turn them over to that country? Umm, a number comes to mind. Zero. So we attacked a country for following US policy.

Actually, we had the drug lords there do most of the work and then rewarded them by making Afghanistan the #1 supplier of heroin, and other opiates in the world.

How can we stop the madness that is being done in our name?
--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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DraginRat
Member
I don't know why I even read this forum. It must be the entertainment value. No, just bored for the moment.

Doc. without addressing your character, intellect, or political views, you are wrong. Totally and without exception wrong.

Ken Gasbarri
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roscoe
Member
Guantanamo is very strategic to the security of the U.S.. Our security depends on it. How else to stop the Cuban invasion. Plus will be in the future if Castro ever kicks the bucket it will become a fine mecca for gambling casinos.

The residents of the base which are there now being well taken care of in a much nicer climate than their former one will be first in line for the many job oppurtunities that will open up soon. These things take time be patient. Think higher payouts band of course real cuban cigars.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
But Bush wants to close it down.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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roscoe
Member
Bush and Castro should become hikers and take one.Do you have any idea what that property is worth.

The island is full of rich history, old cars and fine people. Just the old cars alone are worth a trip. Talk about keeping a grudge isn't it time to be friends again.

Maybe they have oil under the island. That would work. Great ball players also.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
i agree with roscoe.
sheesh, enough is enough.
here's another case of capitalism "proving" it is better than socialism or communism by refusing to trade with communists.
hard to make a living if you can't sell your product to anyone.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
What's it got to do with capitalism? Do you see businesses boycotting and blockading Cuba? American businesses have been pleading for years to open trade. No, you see GOVERNMENT interfering with free trade. A fine point, I know, but it had to be made. :security:


Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
granted it is government meddling, but who is running the government.
CAPITALISTS! ;) :)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Then it's called CORPORATISM, or worse, STATISM. :)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
I call it collusion and controlling. heh heh

say, off topic, I think you would enjoy reading the bio of Armand Hammer. Check it out. tells you a lot about the USSR, too.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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