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Da Vinci Code, 2
Topic Started: May 21 2006, 09:34 AM (650 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Da Vinci Code wandered about in a helter-skelter of topic shifts.


Is this the crux of the matter?

Jesus Christ as Poached Egg:**
Quote:
 
DVC thus is a thinly fictionalized amalgam of many ancient heresies, of which two are most prominent:

  • Arianism: A very old heresy associated with Bishop Arius of Alexandria (circa 320 AD). Christ is a creation rather than part of the Triune God. It was to address Arianism that the Council of Nicaea was called 325. At that Council, a statement of faith was adopted that became the Nicene Creed. ...

  • Gnosticism: The origins of Gnosticism are somewhat obscure. Some historians view it as a Christian heresy. Others claim it originated pre-Christianity and then absorbed some elements of the Christian faith. In either case, its basic tenet is the pursuit of gnosis (i.e., "special knowledge"). Numerous Gnostic Gospels circulated in the early Church but all were rejected by the Church as heterodox as the final Biblical canon evolved.


  • The author concludes:
    Quote:
     
    Perhaps no one has ever captured the basic problem with the truth claims made on behalf of DVC and its ilk better than C.S. Lewis, who observed in Mere Christianity that:
    Quote:
     
    "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."


    **Not my title! See the above CS Lewis quote.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
well, of course, this is what the furor is all about... the questioning of the divinity of Jesus and, just as important, the lack of sacrificial death (no death on the cross, no payment for sin, etc)

it is as "defamatory" as suggesting that Moses talked to God on a radio (remember when that theory came out some years back?)
or that Mohamed made up a new religion based on judaism and christianity but altered the jewish story of isaac and ishmael as a means of claiming the holy land for the arabs.

for myself, these questions/theories, etc are irrelevant because it is the general message that matters, not the source. for me, the message stands alone, apart from the source.

in a nutshell, the message says to me: there is a God and He is personally interested in all that He has made. He knows we humans seek happiness/contentment/inner peace/fulfillment and justification for our existence.
He wants us to find this.
And provides us with a guideline for attaining it.
He knows that we hope for a utopia, and promises that there is one out there to find.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
So you, and others, are saying that if I question the divinity I am attacking Christianity?

Never heard that one about Moses. Radio, huh, 3000 years ago? :scratch:
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
So you, and others, are saying that if I question the divinity I am attacking Christianity?


that is how it is perceived by those to whom the divinity of Jesus is crucial to their theology.

Quote:
 
Never heard that one about Moses. Radio, huh, 3000 years ago? 


yeah, somebody got to reading the instructions for building the Ark and compared it to building a radio. Can't recall the details, now.
And then there was Eric Von Daniken who proposed that God might have been an ancient astronaut ET. He wrote a few interesting books.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
So "attacking" is just rhetorical spin? Chistians just don't want to see or hear their beliefs questioned and discussed.

Do all Christians really accept divinity with blind faith?** I would think people actually laign along a spectrum from believing absolutely to questioning skeptically.



** I suppose "blind faith" can be seen as rhetorical spin itself. :)
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
So "attacking" is just rhetorical spin? Chistians just don't want to see or hear their beliefs questioned and discussed.

Do all Christians really accept divinity with blind faith?** I would think people actually laign along a spectrum from believing absolutely to questioning skeptically.



it isn't a matter of liking or disliking it. for most christians, Jesus' divinity is central to their religion. a book or movie that proposes otherwise is runs counter to that belief. I don't know why some christians are making a bigger deal out of this book/movie than others...maybe because Tom Hanks is the star and will draw a lot more people??? who knows?

most christians really do accept J's divinity with blind faith; moreover, the belief is regarded as a defining mark of one's christianity. (if you don't believe J is divine, you aren't a christian)

that said, what a lot of christians don't realize or refuse to entertain is:
you don't have to be a christian to "be saved".
I reject that because it isn't logical to me.. it is contrary to other, core beliefs in christian theology.
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Banandangees
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What is "blind faith?" How does accepting Jesus' devinity by faith differ from accepting Jesus' devinity by "blind faith?" Does blind faith come by from lack of scriptural awarness/knowledge?

What is rejection of Jesus' devinity based on? Is it based on fact or just "blind doubt?"
Banan
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
What is "blind faith?" How does accepting Jesus' devinity by faith differ from accepting Jesus' devinity by "blind faith?" Does blind faith come by from lack of scriptural awarness/knowledge?

What is rejection of Jesus' devinity based on? Is it based on fact or just "blind doubt?"


yes, and yes ;) :)

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Blind faith to me is accepting something, anything, without question and, it follows, without reason, at least explanable reason. "Blind" might to some carry negative connotations, but I don't intend to spin it that way.


"What is rejection of Jesus' devinity based on? Is it based on fact or just "blind doubt?""

I can't answer that. I was speaking only of questioning his divinity, as was being done in "Da Vinci Code, 1". The basis of it is usually contained in the questions being asked.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
'Da Vinci' sets global B.O. record
Quote:
 
Moviegoers around the world thumbed their noses at the critics this weekend as Sony Pictures' "The Da Vinci Code" attracted record-breaking crowds.

Sony reported Sunday that Ron Howard's $125 million adaptation of the best-selling Dan Brown novel opened to an estimated worldwide haul of $224 million. That secured its spot as the second highest worldwide debut ever, behind only last year's "Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith," which took off with $253 million.

In North America, "Code" pulled in an estimated $77 million to become the biggest domestic opening of the year, beating out "Ice Age: The Meltdown," which bowed to $68 million in late March....

With international boxoffice receipts of $147 million, overseas ticket sales nearly doubled the movie's domestic take. Domestically, the "Code" debut ranked as the 13th largest domestic opening ever. But its robust international grosses made it the No. 1 overseas debut in boxoffice history....

In achieving the second best worldwide debut ever, "Code" supplanted the previous holder of that title, 2004's "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban," which recorded $207 million. It also outranked the worldwide launch of 2003's "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King," which bowed to $205 million globally....


What in the world are people thinking?

I wouldn't argue popularity determines truth.

The stinks pun is funny. :floorrollin:
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
people like tom hanks
and non catholics love a catholic conspiracy story ;)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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tomdrobin
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cmoehle
May 21 2006, 10:00 PM
Blind faith to me is accepting something, anything, without question and, it follows, without reason, at least explanable reason. "Blind" might to some carry negative connotations, but I don't intend to spin it that way.


"What is rejection of Jesus' devinity based on? Is it based on fact or just "blind doubt?""

I can't answer that. I was speaking only of questioning his divinity, as was being done in "Da Vinci Code, 1". The basis of it is usually contained in the questions being asked.

One can reject the idea of "blind faith", that is faith in occurances or truths without concrete evidence. And, still not totally reject those occurances or truths. To question or doubt, does not indicate rejection of the premise. But, a rejection of the "blind faith" that purports it to be an absolute truth.

It is possible that all the tenants of the Christian faith are correct. But, it is also very possible that there is some truth, some myth, some superstition etc. in the mix.

I attended a Christian Church service today, as I often do to please my wife. They were instilling some new members. It was almost like a marriage ceremony, in that the minister asked them if they believed a long list of things, and they responded with "I do". I sat there thinking to myself. No matter how moral and just the beliefs are, how can you say you absolutely believe in something of which you have no proof. And, the only proof offered is a book, that you must also accept as being an absolute truth. A book, if it's origin and history were seriously investigated, that would appear to have been modified and changed over time for political and religious purposes.

On the way home I told my wife. "I really enjoyed the music, I really enjoyed the message and it's practical application to everyday life. I think the moral princeples are basically sound. The people are very nice. I could enjoy socializing with them and they have a softball team. Just a great place to hang out. But, I really have a problem with this "faith based philosophy". Although I do believe there is probably a higher moral authority the concept of worshiping the God, or God's if you wish, seems to be so primitive.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
No matter how moral and just the beliefs are, how can you say you absolutely believe in something of which you have no proof. And, the only proof offered is a book, that you must also accept as being an absolute truth. A book, if it's origin and history were seriously investigated, that would appear to have been modified and changed over time for political and religious purposes.


you can't really, but many do claim to.
as much as we would like it to be, belief/faith is not absolute and never can be as long as we have free will and lack infinite knowledge and understanding.
people can and do get mad (disappointed by) at God (or the church) and get a "divorce".
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Tom, I wish I could have said as well as you just did. Doubt and skepticism is not rejection. As Jane puts it, "as much as we would like it to be, belief/faith is not absolute and never can be as long as we have free will and lack infinite knowledge and understanding." It would seem to me that a stronger belief would be built upon questioning it.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Stoney
Huntsville, AL
I think those of us who use the term “blind faith” also cling to the idea that religion is God and God is religion. A growing number of us see religion based on the works of man, maybe the needs of man, and take a skepticism of religion and equate it with a skepticism of God.

Another dilemma is that without religion there is not much evidence of God, some would say none. But when you boil the facts down to “I don't know” from purely proof, and then look at our existence, our world, I don't know how it would be logical to simply reject God.

The biggest problem with religion to me is that it. in at least many cases, requires control over the thoughts of others. It requires us to be submissive and dependent to ideas in an era when we are taught, rightfully so, to be independent thinkers. It's easy to reject God on an intellectual level. I find it difficult to totally reject the idea of God.

When I look at it from that point of view, the possibility, rather than the impossibility, it becomes clear, to me, admittedly without proof.
The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way.

Henry David Thoreau
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