Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Campfire Soapbox. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Values
Topic Started: May 18 2006, 12:22 PM (465 Views)
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
it seems to me, and sadly so, that the only way we're going to get the kind of government we really want (as a majority) is to actually participate in the process instead of expecting the people we elect to do it for us.
I'm sure that many of them go to DC with idealist (and good) intentions, but the old boys club rules scotch that pretty quick.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
ngc1514
May 19 2006, 04:10 PM
cmoehle
May 19 2006, 04:01 PM
Hitler's morals were based on desired ends, regardless the means.

Protestations to the contrary, I think that reflects the national morals of most countries. It would seem to pretty tightly define why we are in Iraq, n'est pas?

To the extent any political philosophy or practice that places the collective good, be it social or state, over the individual, the more it fits that pattern.


I believe that there is, from the ethical point of view, no symmetry between suffering and happiness, or between pain and pleasure. Both the greatest happiness principle of the Utilitarians and Kant's principle, "Promote other people's happiness...", seem to me (at least in their formulations) fundamentally wrong in this point, which is, however, not one for rational argument....In my opinion...human suffering makes a direct moral appeal for help, while there is no similar call to increase the happiness of a man who is doing well anyway.
--Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies, 1952
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bikemanb
Member Avatar
Liberal Conservative
Chris's point about the marketing is very valid, the 20 second sound bite has become the defining moment for most voters.

The problem is that to tell the truth, they would say too many things that would offend the mass of voters and thus not get elected.

Will Rogers used to say about the presidency that we should never vote for anyone that wanted the job, and I think this fits because if they want the job they have to lie like the flea bitten vermin they are.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tomdrobin
Member
DocInBird
May 19 2006, 12:32 PM
Bill Clinton was a liar, but what did he lie about? Most of the world considered him to be a hero for lying to protect his paramour.

Doc
Do you really think slick Willy lied to protect Monica? I find that one a hard one to believe. He was being sued in court for a sexual harrassment complaint, that happened when he was Governor of Arkansas. The Monica issue was brought up to show a pattern of behavior. He denied having a sexual relationship with her. Why? The only reason I can see would be to save his reputation and avoid the wrath of Hillary. Had a reporter asked the question, the resultant lie would have just been bad behavior unbecoming of a president. But, he lied under oath, in court. That's the biggie! Not the affair.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
when I call our politicians liars, I don't mean they are malicious liars..
politicians are liars because they tell the masses (voters) what they want to hear.
so panderer might be the better word.
the lying about personal things like womanizing or dodging military duty are, I think, natural lies of self protection...reasonable and understandable and forgiveable. there isn't one of us who hasn't lied to cover up something we're ashamed of or might get punished for.

now lies that cost human lives... are a different category altogether.
I don't think GW actually conspired to make up a lie about WMD in Iraq just so he could kick Sadaam's rear out of office.
I think someone(Iraqi exiles living over here) was telling him there were WMD in Iraq, but had no concrete proof of it, but GW wanted to do it, so he used that "rumor" to take us to war.

But the fact there were no WMD isn't the real issue about our invasion of Iraq.
The real issue is that GW struck first, and that, to me, is just plain un-american and immoral.
The fact that the american people let him get away with it says something about us... and it's not very nice.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
You have a point there, Jane, if they lie to tell us what we want to hear, then aren't we, in effect, lying to ourselves?

We have met the enemy and...
--Pogo
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Colo_Crawdad
Member Avatar
Lowell
TexasShadow
May 19 2006, 03:37 PM
it seems to me, and sadly so, that the only way we're going to get the kind of government we really want (as a majority) is to actually participate in the process instead of expecting the people we elect to do it for us.
I'm sure that many of them go to DC with idealist (and good) intentions, but the old boys club rules scotch that pretty quick.

Anyone remember the old movie, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington?"
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DocInBird
Member
Jane, in less than a week I am back at school for a less rigorous thingie. I would appreciate your permission to quote you regarding what you just said here. I promise that it will be done with respect.

Think about it. Some of these students will change the world. Someday, you will turn on the television and somebody will say, "when I was in college , this guy said to me, something from a mythical figure only known as TexasShaddow. This woman rocked my world.

Scary, isn't it?

--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Quote:
 
Think about it. Some of these students will change the world. Someday, you will turn on the television and somebody will say, "when I was in college , this guy said to me, something from a mythical figure only known as TexasShaddow. This woman rocked my world.

Scary, isn't it?


only if they start a new religion and call me "god". ;) :floorrollin:

(the being scary part, I mean)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
teryt
Member Avatar
Missing in Action Member
DocInBird
May 19 2006, 12:32 PM
Jane, I agree with you. I expect them all to be liars. I want them to be good at it too. They should not fumble around at lying. They should be world-class liars. Bill Clinton was a liar, but what did he lie about? Most of the world considered him to be a hero for lying to protect his paramour. Compare him to Bush, a fumbling compulsive liar who gets people killed.

I'm not sure that I could vote for a person that could not lie effectively. Would you? But who do they lie to and why? Do they lie to me?

Don't we want them to be able to lie? Don't we want them to be able to lie well?

My liar is better'n your liar! :dance:
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
"It seems to me, and sadly so, that the only way we're going to get the kind of government we really want (as a majority) is to actually participate in the process instead of expecting the people we elect to do it for us."

An op-ed from today: Freedom and public responsibility
Quote:
 
It is quite natural, of course, for us to want to defer to presidential assertions of authority in times of danger. We want to be safe, and presidents promise to protect us. But as citizens of a self-governing society, we bear the responsibility to think seriously about our freedoms. It is our responsibility to learn from the blunders of the past. If we are careless about our freedoms, we risk losing them not only for ourselves, but for our children. As the great judge Learned Hand once warned, "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it."
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
roscoe
Member
Vote. It scares them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Informed voting scares the heck out of 'em!

That's one value of forums that discuss politics--any forum that does. You get to test out your ideas against the exposure of those of others. Even if you never win an argument on the Internet--and I've never seen that happen--it is informative.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
« Previous Topic · Soapbox · Next Topic »
Add Reply