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| Dumbing Down Of America, 2 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,660 Views) | |
| teryt | May 23 2006, 10:16 PM Post #121 |
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You placed this statement by itself, at the bottom of the page: "ID is, as you have pointed out, a two-faced lie. " Right? I'm not seeing how that is out of context. "Premature" as there hasn't been 1/100th of the energy put into ID as there has been to evolutionary theory. So I don't know how much more I can say about it. I really am not in the position to defend ID. My position, again, is:
Did you read my link to the "Dodo" article? That takes a faily nuetral stance, and the author's idea is to pokes holes in both ID & evolution. Could Evolutionists become Dodos? |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| DocInBird | May 24 2006, 12:42 AM Post #122 |
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LOL, that reminds me of one of my physics profs. Of course both profs are right. We don't have enough data yet to decide. When my mother was in school, they taught her that there could not every be anything smaller than a molecule. When I was in elementary school, they taught that there could never be anything smaller than an atom. By the time I went to college, they were talking about sub-atomic particles. Then I read a book by Fennyman on Quantum Physics. Oh my! There again, we don't have enough data. I gave a guest lecture on the topic of quantum physics last week, and it was great fun. I could "prove" using quantum mechanics that two things could be in the same place at the same time, but I could not cause it to happen on command. I could "prove" that there could be other dimensions or universes, but I could not connect to them. And then I talked about the religion that predicted this a looooong time ago. Obviously there are things that we can observe, but cannot control. Could the design have come from one of these? I don't know. Do you remember the old Farside cartoon where the student says, "Teacher, may I be excused? My brain is full."? After that particular lecture, I sat with faculty members from several departments and we talked about it over a couple of bottles of good brandy. Lots of interesting ideas, but no firm decision. |
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--doc Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America. | |
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| DocInBird | May 24 2006, 02:20 AM Post #123 |
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Eric, we really don't know anything until there is evidence. Do we? I certainly hope that it does not come in the form of Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth, but it might. I will not know until I see the evidence. That makes me an agnostic. I know well about the fiction you reference. I doubt that they were the doers. Hey you. If you do not know whether Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth are going to cause the destruction of the earth, then you are agnostics too. Want more proof? Many of us do. |
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--doc Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America. | |
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| cmoehle | May 24 2006, 03:41 AM Post #124 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Amazing, even after I put it back in context, you deny it. The context is the lie. What do you call telling one group of people the designer is unknown but turning around and telling another group it is the Christian God and the theory is grounded in Christ? If your sole reason for accepting ID over evolution is it's premature to decide, do you feel the same way about abiogenesis, panspermia, IDOID and other theories? OK, I read about the cartoon, Dodos. Its point is that ID could win out over evolution because IDers are better communicators than scientists. It used to be popular to buy snake oil. People like to jump on bandwagons. Remember the hula hoop craze! Such fads come and go in cycles, dying out to commonsense till the next emotional revival. All the while science advances. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | May 24 2006, 04:29 AM Post #125 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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As an additional comment on the populism of ID. Adults may fall for it, but it seems children don't. How Children Learn About God and Science
Is this why Creationists are so adament about wedging ID into the classroom? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| DocInBird | May 24 2006, 04:37 AM Post #126 |
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Chris, my discussion with terryt has been interesting. I started off dissing the organizations promoting ID, by promoting Pang Gu (the Chinese god of myth, that created the world), and whose believers outnumber those believing in the Christian creation myth by far. What he said to me was that he was not interested in the who, but the how. It didn't matter if an alien from a different universe, a quantum link to different reality, or Brahma himself did it. Was there evidence of any intelligence in the design of the universe? On this, I had to call myself an agnostic -- I do not have enough evidence to make a decision. Right now I will stand with Sagan in his brilliant answer to Jonny Carson, when asked if he believes in "god". |
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--doc Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America. | |
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| cmoehle | May 24 2006, 04:53 AM Post #127 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Doc, I find my discussion with Teryt interesting as well. And I am curious if he is as accepting of other theories and myths for the same reason he accepts ID. Isn't Sagan's God that of the Declaration? Nature's God, the Laws of Nature? That speaks to how not who. I would agree, to some it's not very emotionally satisfying. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| DocInBird | May 24 2006, 05:18 AM Post #128 |
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If you really want go be scared, think of the GAIA hypothesis -- that the earth will defend herself against our assaults. There are some pseudo-religious cults that believe that AIDS is god's vengence. What would earth's vengence be like? Just wandering in the middle of the night. I'm a little nervous about tomorrow's lecture. |
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--doc Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America. | |
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| ngc1514 | May 24 2006, 08:46 AM Post #129 |
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Been thinking about your response and (of course!) it raised a few questions. Slanted questions: do you think the slant exists in the mind of the questioner or the answerer or both? Let's go back to the question that - based on the message to which you responded - prompted your reply:
I don't see where you responded in any fashion whatsoever. How is it biased? The question was raised by your comment:
Do you think the question is a logical question based on your comment about creationism and ID using two different beings? Do you think some aspects of religion and/or ID should be left unexplored and unquestioned? And I never asked whether you believed A or B, but only if you would be willing to entertain the notion. I know evolutionary biologists who are willing to entertain the notion that yes, Genesis might be correct in in that it's a message from god and not a science textbook. In other words, they are bible believing Christians who do not attempt to describe the physical universe around them in terms of their religious teachings.
Great! We then agree that ID should be kept out of the science classrooms.
Care to take a shot at defining "irreducibly complex structures" in scientific terms?
Not at all. At least not until some evidence for the designer can be presented in scientific terms and be falsifiable. |
Eric
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| teryt | May 24 2006, 09:06 AM Post #130 |
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Chris stated: I don't deny anything here, Chris. This is what one person said/did - not me! Maybe HE was two-faced in what he said. Maybe I did take it out of context & misunderstood that what you were saying ("ID is . . . a lie") was about him & not ID in general (did I finally get that right?). It's just the way you presented that statement - standing by itself at the very bottom of the page - that drew my attention. Media people often do this, that is, putting an inflamatory remark in a place of prominance to draw attention, to sensationalise the piece. If you weren't doing this, then my bad - I think we "spent" enough time on that! As far as those other theories, I have no problem bringing things like that up in the classroom. As I've stated a few times, I just want to see more open discussion in the classroom, instead of what I view as this tunnel vision focus on evolution as the only proven fact (instead of being presented as a theory). Again, I really don't know all that much about this topic (or anything else for that matter), but I just keep trying to make the above point! ERIC: I find the communication with you to be circular, and you likely think the same toward me. Sorry if what I said didn't help our clarity. (Please see above) |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| ngc1514 | May 24 2006, 09:12 AM Post #131 |
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The the argument should be with the publishers of the textbooks and the school boards who make the purchasing decisions. But it still boils down that parents get upset because their particular form of religious beliefs are left out of the books. ID and creationism are left out of science text books because they are not science.
Actually, no. Logical Empiricism has no beliefs as most understand the term. Well, that's not strictly true, but I'll leave it as a class exercise to determine why.
Yes and.. so what? The article was about social, educational and religious movements and not about the science behind evolutionary theory and the lack of science behind ID. As the title to this thread reads - it's just another form of dumbing down America to serve the purposes of a small group of vocal fundamentalists. Science is not done in public school classrooms and the only ones to suffer will be the children who, along without being able to read, write or do math will now, also, not have a clue about the universe in which they live. |
Eric
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| ngc1514 | May 24 2006, 09:48 AM Post #132 |
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Were [it - added in edit] not, we wouldn't be here to observe it. Look up the weak anthropic principle. How about a definition of "orderly" in relation to the universe. |
Eric
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| teryt | May 24 2006, 10:00 AM Post #133 |
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Missing in Action Member
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Please see my last post. I have nothing I think I can add for clarity here. |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 24 2006, 10:26 AM Post #134 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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I'm still curious, Teryt, what does ID offer over, say, IDOID, to be taught in the science classroom? Both have the potential over time to be supported by evidence. Would you thus argue both should be taught along with evolution? Or should we wait until the evidence is in? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| abradf2519 | May 24 2006, 10:59 AM Post #135 |
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ID is one theory that competes with competing theories abiogenesis and evolution. These 2 areas of scientific research were split into two because abiogenesis became more and more indefencable as time went on. Evolutionary scientists feeling the pressure from creationist critisizm did this. Evoluiton still has serious problems also. Since it is considered the only game in town, ID'ers have no choice but to critisize it to get people to concider ID.
I don't agree that the theories were debunked. I am a person that doesn't just agree with something just because it was written or said by someone smarter than me. Sometimes these people are just trying to fool me. |
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Alan Milan, New York, USA | |
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