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Dumbing Down Of America, 2
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,631 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
IMO, you have to remember Einstein was a scientist. Awe is something we all feel, all share--not sure a meter or not. But to infer from that anything deeper scrapes across Occam's Razor.

IMO, your division is a false dichotomy. It seems to extract you from the life you lead and place you in a struggle between material living and spiritual Life. This is a major theme in Western Literature--ever read Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich? Tolstoy adopted a sort of cross between Christianity and Buddhism, which isn't troubled with such schizophrenic notions as we are in the West.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jun 13 2006, 09:18 PM
Prager would find a 1-bit program indicative of God.

What scientific evidence does Collins provide? Any? Or does he leap from the edge of awe to God out of incredulity?


Now what logical fallicy is this (re: Prager) indicative of? :whistle:

So if you found a complete & functioning computer program comprised of billions of bits, where would you suppose it came from?
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
Tolstoy adopted a sort of cross between Christianity and Buddhism, which isn't troubled with such schizophrenic notions as we are in the West.


nice way of calling christians just plumb crazy. ;) :)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Jane, I said we in the West, it is a dichotomy we in the West face, it is in fact, the science v religion dichotomy we've been arguing here. It is a dichotomy not known to the East.



Teryt, I read Prager about once a week to remind me what bigoted elitism is all about. That is not a logical fallacy, just my personal opinion. I'm not shooting down the idea because of him though.

"So if you found a complete & functioning computer program comprised of billions of bits, where would you suppose it came from?"

HAL.

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teryt
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Oh yes, humor hehehehehehehehe (in Cone Head fashion)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
HAL likely ran a genetic program. Genetic programming is modeled on evolutonary theory.

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In information theoretic terms the longer the code the more random the bits. For example, a program that simulated a series of coin flips. Therefore, no intelligence implied.
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ngc1514
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teryt
Jun 13 2006, 05:02 PM
OK, somebody has to get us back on track. How 'bout this?!

London Times: I’ve found God, says man who cracked the genome

Quote:
 
THE scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome is to publish a book explaining why he now believes in the existence of God and is convinced that miracles are real.
Francis Collins, the director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute, claims there is a rational basis for a creator and that scientific discoveries bring man “closer to God”.



His book, The Language of God, to be published in September, will reopen the age-old debate about the relationship between science and faith. “One of the great tragedies of our time is this impression that has been created that science and religion have to be at war,” said Collins, 56.

“I don’t see that as necessary at all and I think it is deeply disappointing that the shrill voices that occupy the extremes of this spectrum have dominated the stage for the past 20 years.”

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to “glimpse at the workings of God”.

“When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it,” he said. “But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

“When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.”

Collins joins a line of scientists whose research deepened their belief in God. Isaac Newton, whose discovery of the laws of gravity reshaped our understanding of the universe, said: “This most beautiful system could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful being.”


I heard about this article on Dennis Prager's radio show today. Dennis made an interesting comment: "If one found a computer program with 3.1 billion [bits] in it, they would never say that it didn't have an intelligent designer!" :dance:

Very nice.

You'll notice he doesn't say anything about the so-called personal god of the christian sect.

It's a personal belief that has yet to make a meter move.
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teryt
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Quote:
 
You'll notice he doesn't say anything about the so-called personal god of the christian sect.

It's a personal belief that has yet to make a meter move.
As it relates to ID, I don't know that anyone was specifically referring to the "personal god of the christian sect." And the point has been made that ID stops short of naming the designer.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Let's go back to Dennis Prager's "If one found a computer program with 3.1 billion [bits] in it, they would never say that it didn't have an intelligent designer!"

Small mind. If 3.1 billion bits represents the handiwork of an intelligent designer, then the Computational Universal would have programmed billions of such designers by now.

Seth Lloyd, Programming the Universe, infers from a number of fairly simple laws and theorums, that over the 14 billion years the universe has been around the cosmological computer could have performed about 10,000 billion billion googal ops (10122). And he figures this computer could store 100 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion bits of information (1092).

As a contrast to help you envision this, he calculates that in the entire history of compuation on Earth computers have performed fewer that 20 billion billion billion ops (2 x 1028) with a total storage capacity of fewer than 1000 billion billion bits (1023).

Anyway, 10122 ops on 1092 is all it took to get what you see around you.

Prager's and Collin's 3.1 billion bits amount to "Hello, World!" :floorrollin:
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ngc1514
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teryt
Jun 13 2006, 09:16 PM
As it relates to ID, I don't know that anyone was specifically referring to the "personal god of the christian sect."  And the point has been made that ID stops short of naming the designer.

But it doesn't relate to ID in any meaningful way - no more than anyone else's expressing a belief in god. Belief is nice, but it doesn't make meters more.

ID stops short of naming the designer. Great, that's like evolution stopping short of showing things evolve. Sounds like the IDers are cranking down the deus ex machina as required.

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teryt
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cmoehle
Jun 13 2006, 10:52 PM
Teryt, I read Prager about once a week to remind me what bigoted elitism is all about. That is not a logical fallacy, just my personal opinion. I'm not shooting down the idea because of him though.


And here I thought Prager was the most accommodating & least bombastic of the bunch. Rated from least tolerant & most bombastic to the most tolerant & least bombastic, of the ones I listen to on occasion:

(Strictly nonscientific - Now we're really off topic, but I'm allowed once)

Randy Rhodes - entertaining, but can only take her for short time as she makes constant, wild comments which she doesn't offer to back up

Local Air America idiot (forget his name)

Savage - almost never listen to him - pretty intolerant

Al Franken - he's just Al Franken - pretty full of himself

Ron Reagan - very predictable

Neil Boortz - Just doesn't appeal much to me, a little cocky

Rush - OK, but often in attack mode (actually the main popularizer of bombastisism, but pretty tolerant of caller's opposing views on the air)

Laura Ingrahm - can get acerbic, but seems less sensationalized

Hugh Hewitt - he can get a little biting and cut people off infrequently

Michael Medved - Tough, but pretty fair - allows lots of debate, but has final word (it is his show after all)

Dennis Prager - very respectful of other's & their opinions - stresses clarity over agreement - I just like him

The last several all have a belief in the Judeo-Christian value system, for what that's worth.
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teryt
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ngc1514
Jun 14 2006, 01:32 AM
ID stops short of naming the designer. Great, that's like evolution stopping short of showing things evolve.

Ha! False analogy. You can demonstrate a design without naming the designer. You can't demonstrate evolution if you don't show things evolving.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
One talking head's about the same as the next far as I'm concerned. OK, I'd like to hear Boortz but he's not available in this area.


"Judeo-Christian"? Invention of the early 1950s. Should I dig up the name of the preacher who invented it. Prager harps on that too. What imaginations!
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Posted Image

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more...
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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teryt
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I like these:

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