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Dumbing Down Of America, 2
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,633 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Man chose knowledge, as in science, not evil as you would have it.

Misunderstanding of scripture is a given.

Keeping up with science, as knowledge explodes exponentially, must keep monks, er, apologists awful busy. ;)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
Faith and belief are fine for religion, but they make awful science.


eric, it seems to me that faith/belief are part of what drives science to seek the apparently impossible. like flying or curing cancer. it's the notion that the answer exists somewhere if only we can find it.
the mistake is, perhaps, in thinking that science can and will find ALL the answers.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Jane, earlier I said "So where is there any perfection? Is God having trouble achieving his purpose? Is he a lesser god after all? (more on that latter...)"

Well, here's the more later.... :)

This comes from a paper by Massimo Pigliucci, Design yes, intelligent no: a critique of intelligent design theory and neo-creationism.

His argument is based on:
Quote:
 
Aristotle identified material causes, what something is made of; formal causes, the structure of the thing or phenomenon; efficient causes, the immediate activity producing a phenomenon or object; and final causes, the purpose of whatever object we are investigating.


It's an arguement against ID:
Quote:
 
Dembski maintains that Bacon and his followers did away with both formal and final causes (the so-called teleonomic causes, because they answer the question of why something is) in order to free science from philosophical speculation and ground it firmly into empirically verifiable statements. That may be so, but things certainly changed with the work of Charles Darwin (1859) . Darwin was addressing a complex scientific question in an unprecedented fashion: he recognized that living organisms are clearly designed in order to survive and reproduce in the world they inhabit; yet, as a scientist, he worked within the framework of naturalistic explanations of such design. Darwin found the answer in his well-known theory of natural selection. Natural selection, combined with the basic process of mutation, makes design possible in nature without recourse to a supernatural explanation because selection is definitely non-random, and therefore has “creative” (albeit non-conscious) power. Creationists usually do not understand this point and think that selection can only eliminate the less fit; but Darwin’s powerful insight was that selection is also a cumulative process – analogous to a ratchet – which can build things over time, as long as the intermediate steps are also advantageous.


He maps out four kinds of design:
Posted Image

Darwin is to the left and your perfect God to the right.

ID (Dembski) argues irreducibly complex but suboptimal design. Now you have more reasons to disagree with ID.

My earlier point was that gods can be imperfect.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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Wonderful! Now where in the world do we go with that!!?? This seems truly endless! Time to have a drink, listen to my dog & go play freesbie!

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Man chose knowledge, as in science, not evil as you would have it.
Not sure I follow you here. It was the "tree of the knowledge of good & evil."
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

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teryt
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Quote:
 
Darwin is to the left and your perfect God to the right.
So God IS a conservative & Darwin was a lefty - I just knew it!
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
The tree of knowledge nonetheless.

BTW, do you agree with Pigliucci's classification, that Demski argues for non-optimal design?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jun 13 2006, 02:09 AM
The tree of knowledge nonetheless.

BTW, do you agree with Pigliucci's classification, that Demski argues for non-optimal design?

I'll hafta look at it more later - still in play mode!

Do you remember what the other tree was that they were supposed to eat?
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Life, or immortality, not to be confused with living. Man chose enlightenment, the Bodhisattva tree. Giving up the pursuit of perfection.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DocInBird
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TeryT: You said a bad word. You know that I read these postings aloud to Orson. I didn't catch it in time. You mentioned the Fri*sb** thing. This is his religion, but he cannot do it until his surgery is fully healed. Gee, thanks.

In the Judeo-Christian bible, when god gave the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam, did he mention global warming? Or did he just say generalities? Did he mention over-population?

Since this was the "old testament god", who told the israelites he was going to give them a land, but they had to kill every man, woman, child, and animal that was already living there, and later tried to characterize himself as the "god of love", what are we to believe?

Are you really saying that god created mental illness with full understanding of what pain it would cause to those who have it and the family and friends? This same god created breast cancer? Oh, I am sorry, he intelligently designed it. Also, he created many species of animals knowing that they would all die out? What kind of creator would do that?

We keep talking about the "bible" as if the Judeo-Christian bible is the only one of the hundreds that is worth considering. I can manage to get you a pass to attend my class in the fall semester. Yup, I have an actual "job" in addition to my self-employed stuff. The class is "Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion." You can find it in Palo Alto in the fall. Just think about the discussion after class....
--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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DocInBird
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Aha!! Someone understands,

Chris said:
Life, or immortality, not to be confused with living. Man chose enlightenment, the Bodhisattva tree. Giving up the pursuit of perfection.

Sit down and think about it for a moment. What he said is profound. The more you think about it, the more you will respect the messanger.

Namaste, chris.
--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Doc, that sort of goes back to the universality of science--there's really only one science, all sorts of disagreement and debate within, but still only one universal method and social endeavor. As opposed to the untold number of different religions around the world, each claiming The Truth, exclusively, and, arrogantly. others wrong.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DocInBird
Member
Gurjieff wrote that when man wants answers to the "eternal questions", he only needs to look inside. He already has the information he desires, but that years of conditioning has obscured the path to that information.

The Buddha taught the same thing, as did many other great teachers.

--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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teryt
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Well I will say that this is giving a good insight into different perspectives, and is therefore enhancing.

Of these great teachers, is Christ the only one who said anything like, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."?

(and what ever you do don't read freesbie freesbie freesbie out loud)
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
Recovering Perfectionist
Christian Hedonist

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
What, the Buddha and Bodhisattva stuff? Buddha thought the concept of God/god(s) silly, I think Buddha silly, especially Laughing Buddha, and just see parallels between Adma and Eve enlightened under the apple tree, Buddha enlightened under the Bodhisattva tree, and Newton under another apple tree.

(I think I hear Orson growling...)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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DocInBird
Jun 12 2006, 05:37 PM
Brad: Your mention of bestiality was a complete non-sequitor. Now polygamy would have been appropriate. How many wives did Abraham have? Did Joseph and his brother (the traditional Jews vs Arabs explanation) both come from the same mother?

No, not a non sequitur at all. The statement in Leviticus about beastiality follows the statement about homosexuality. You said that you interpreted the homosexual statement to infer homosexual sex in worship, because of the statement about Molech right before it. Couldn't you also interpret the statement about beastiality the same way? The interesting thing is Molech was mentioned because people sacrificed their babies to Molech ("passing through the fire"). No other idol is mentioned in this chapter. Polygamy however really would have been a non sequitur, since it has nothing to do with worship.

Quote:
 
I think you missed my point.  If there was a "designer", he/she created a system where 10-12% of humans born as homosexuals.  That is fact.  There is no "cure".  Even the archaic RC church has had to accept this.  This is why they ammended to rules for priests to differentiate between being born as a homosexual and practicing homosexual acts.


There is no cure? There is no cure for AIDs either, but we are still looking for it. Fact is, we just don't understand why some (like 1%, not 10-12%, I have heard) have homosexual preferences. So we should just give up? This is stupid.

You are also assuming that homosexual tendancies are inherited. This has not been proven at all. There is evidence that it is learned though, since large percentages of homosexuals have simiar unusual childhood experiences. Not all though...To be fair, there is no proof of this either.

I feel that I should also appoligise for the negative tone of my post. Sorry....
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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