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Dumbing Down Of America, 2
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,639 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Explain. Don't make empty claims, please. Explain, how did I misrepresent?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jun 8 2006, 10:28 PM
Explain. Don't make empty claims, please. Explain, how did I misrepresent?

From last post:
Quote:
 
Yeah, that's it - my friend said it. Yeah! (he's big, white & doesn't have floppy ears).  LOL

Somehow I knew you would take that to mean he said ID is a religion.  I just knew it! 

******************************************************************
Chris responded: That's what he said. Well, actually, to be picky, he did not say ID is a religion, but a part of believing in religion. A difference, you know.
(underline mine)

Your admission.

Chris, I wouldn't even mention it, but you are so careful to point things like this out to me & others, so . . .
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Huh? Why so obtuse? What do I misrepresent about what your freind says?

"ID is a religion" is your misrepresentation.

Your friend argues ID is religion, not a religion.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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Another explination concerning the evidence of design:

I am watching a TV show right now about the Yanaguni monument in Japan. The interesting thing about this monument is that it is underwater, about 16 feet down. The contravercy is that it would have to be about 10000 years old if it were man made. Some geologists are saying the monument is natural. But if you look at the photos, it looks obviously man made. I actually heard a commentator talking about "The evidence of design".

Quote:
 
The report that this enigmatic underwater structure has shown more evidence of being man-made, also offered the opinion that American geologists have claimed that the structure is not  man-made, and is a natural formation. But this contention was itself out-of-focus... Japanese scientists have documented marks on the stones that indicate that they were hewn. Not only that, the tools used in this process have been found in the area, and carvings have been discovered. A small stairway carved into the rocks appears to render the theory that this is a natural formation implausible.
Source

This discovery illustrates my point. Why do people think it is man made? Because it looks like it is. Is this scientific? No. So some geologists ignore the obvious and try to say it is natural, being very scientific. But if you look at the pictures, you could not understand how someone would ever reach this conclusion.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
So, Alan, are you saying the universe is man-made? The Weak Anthropic Principle would agree.

Note, however, Teryt's friend says analogy is a good argument.

And it's certainly not evidence.


Alan, a few pages back I asked, if given the chance, to introduce ID into the biology class, say a textbook chapter and a week's curriculum, what would you teach about ID?

Jane settled for mere mention. Teryt too. What about you? Here's your chance, hypothetically.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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cmoehle
Jun 8 2006, 06:57 PM
So, Alan, are you saying the universe is man-made? The Weak Anthropic Principle would agree.

Note, however, Teryt's friend says analogy is a good argument.

And it's certainly not evidence.


Alan, a few pages back I asked, if given the chance, to introduce ID into the biology class, say a textbook chapter and a week's curriculum, what would you teach about ID?

Jane settled for mere mention. Teryt too. What about you? Here's your chance, hypothetically.

Let me answer your question with another question...would it be good to teach kids that the Yamaguni Monument is a natural phenominon, and stop anyone trying to show any evidence that the monument is man made by a court order?
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
What kind of class are we talking about? Architecture? I doubt your religious question would mattr.

By implication, then, you're saying you want more than mention, you want time to present evidence. Can you lay out your chapter and lesson plans? What spcifically are you talking about?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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My wife an I are already teaching what we think kids should learn. While I don't recomend our creation based ciriculum, an ID based one where there is no specific religion or god mentioned or implied. A secular ciriculum is important. Of course, evolution and its evidence should be taught as usual.

Where ever evolution is mentioned, design should also be mentioned as a alternative view.

Kids would not be confused, I know this because my kids arn't, they would simply be given both view points and the evidence for both.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Yes, yes, but what specifically would you teach? You've already eliminated discussing who the designer is. So what's left? What I'm asking for are a few of the details of a chapter and lesson plans. How about one apsect of ID, one textbook section or lesson plan outline on that aspect?

With all the arguing for this opportunity, I'd've thought there was material ready for textbooks and lessons.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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The curiculum we have ephasisizes how each organism is designed to fit in it's niche. It talks about the various survival mechanisms an organism has and how they fit into the niche. While this is not exacly earth shattering, it presents the information from a creationist view point (God gave the x organism, y features to help it survive in z system) rather than just an evolutionary view. I realise that the information provided is known, its just different in how it's presented. As far as the origion of the earth is concerned, the evidence of design is presented and why creation scientists think the earth was designed instead of evolved.

I forgot to look for ID based science books while I was as the home schooling convention last week.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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teryt
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cmoehle
Jun 8 2006, 09:42 PM
Your friend is saying ID is religion.

....
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
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teryt
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Clarifiying question here: when we talk about Creationism, does this also mean young earth?
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
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Christian Hedonist

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
OK, so I see two lessons there: "how each organism is designed to fit in it's niche" and "As far as the origion of the earth is concerned, the evidence of design is presented and why creation scientists think the earth was designed instead of evolved."

As for origin of earth, do you think that is proper material in a biology class? Wouldn't that fit better in an earth science class?

When you say "how" do you mean the process by which organisms were designed (the shooting of the arrow) or the end product (the blade of grass the arrow hit)?

One thing seems to be missing in your lessons. A major complaint raised here about evolution is that it is taught as fact. Wouldn't you also have to indicate that design, in fact Designer is not fact, but a theory, like evolution, for which there is much controversy?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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abradf2519
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cmoehle
Jun 9 2006, 03:53 AM
OK, so I see two lessons there: "how each organism is designed to fit in it's niche" and "As far as the origion of the earth is concerned, the evidence of design is presented and why creation scientists think the earth was designed instead of evolved."

As for origin of earth, do you think that is proper material in a biology class? Wouldn't that fit better in an earth science class?



Where ever abiogenisis is taught.

Quote:
 
When you say "how" do you mean the process by which organisms were designed (the shooting of the arrow) or the end product (the blade of grass the arrow hit)?


It should be metioned that some concider evolution a process that was put in place by the designer. In this respect, the arrow was shot by the designer aimed at the particular blade of grass, I would think.

Quote:
 
One thing seems to be missing in your lessons. A major complaint raised here about evolution is that it is taught as fact. Wouldn't you also have to indicate that design, in fact Designer is not fact, but a theory, like evolution, for which there is much controversy?


Of course! ID may not even be a theory scientifically speaking. It might be a hypothisis at this point. What ever ID is concidered, should be taught.
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Alan "Where ever abiogenisis is taught."

I don't think it is. Nor panspermia. Nor Doc's Navajo myths. So it must be asked why ID should be an exception.


"It should be metioned that some concider evolution a process that was put in place by the designer."

Interesting. So you accept evolution, just claim a Designer designed it. I think that's what Jane is saying. Teryt and his friend seem to disagree as they seem to want to discredit it.


"Of course! ID may not even be a theory scientifically speaking. It might be a hypothisis at this point. What ever ID is concidered, should be taught."

So if the scientific community doesn't consider it science it's OK when teaching ID to say that design and Designer are not considered science but religion?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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