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| Dumbing Down Of America, 2 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,667 Views) | |
| teryt | May 14 2006, 12:15 PM Post #16 |
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Missing in Action Member
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I don't think I can agree. ID goes into a lot of biology. It's some of the things dicovered in biology since Darwin that have given rise to ID. Many of the things happening on a molecular level, Darwin had no idea of. |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 12:22 PM Post #17 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Better put as IDers accept much of modern evolutionary theory that science has advanced since Darwin. Their only contribution is to posit an intelligent designer as an untestable, non-predictive explaination of why creation happened, without a word of scientific explanation how the intelligent designer did that. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| MDPD6320 | May 14 2006, 12:30 PM Post #18 |
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
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I agree that evolution Vs. creationism is not the cause of problems in education. It is the lack of discipline in the approach to education. Teachers must be self disciplined in regard to their obligations to students, and students are not disciplined by their parents to value education. Todays teachers graduate with hundreds of hours of HOW to teach and very few hours of WHAT to teach. I attended a relatively poor (in dollars) high school. We were 40 to 50 in a class (all boys) taught by dedicated Catholic clerics. I received my liberal arts college education in high school, although I didn't know that until later in life. BTW they taught natural selection in biology and creationism in religion classes. Money will not help to improve education. What will help is better, dedicated teachers and better dedicated parents, the institution of standardized state testing, and elimination of the biggest obstacle to these improvements: the NEA. |
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" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have." "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. | |
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| TexasShadow | May 14 2006, 12:43 PM Post #19 |
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Jane
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| teryt | May 14 2006, 12:50 PM Post #20 |
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I think this may be begging the question. As I see it, evolution puts forth a VERY feeble attempt to explain how the primordial ooz brings forth life. In contrast, at least ID says, "Yes, these beginings are a mystery, which can only be explained adequately by a designer." Again, ID also uses findings that Darwin never knew about. |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 01:18 PM Post #21 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Evolutionary theory doesn't address creation. For that you might turn to theories like abiogenesis or panspermia. ID is circular in its claim. Darwin is dead. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| teryt | May 14 2006, 01:37 PM Post #22 |
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Missing in Action Member
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Circular? I could probably say the same thing about Darwinism. I think both theories make leaps & postulations. |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 02:05 PM Post #23 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Evolutionary theory does not presuppose what it sets out to explain, as ID, a thin mask for Creationism, does. Or would you care to elaborate how evolutionary theory, or even that red herring, Darwinism, is circular. Evolutionary theory, modern, contemporary evolutionary theory, like all sciences, posits testable hypotheses and predictions, and self-corrects, as it has greatly advanced from long ago Darwinism, as more is known. What does ID hypothesize or predict that is testable? What would be the self-correction should its hypothesis or prediction prove false? That's rhetorical, nothing in the ID literature does anything of the sort. As such it is not only circular but a non sequitar. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| teryt | May 14 2006, 03:01 PM Post #24 |
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Missing in Action Member
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I don't think that's so - evolution postulates that things started in an electrified pool of ooz or sumptin akin - which doesn't cut it with many. So ID addresses this point. Because at the momment ID doesn't seem provable - is that a reason to chuck it? I think as more & more evidence mounts that shows things have a much more detailed make-up (yes design), then doesn't this tend to support the ID theory? It certainly doesn't discredit it! I think these intricate molecular level findings do tend to cast doubts on certain eveolution presupositions. The findings & idea of irreducibly complex systems makes the odds that life came from an evolutionary process go from 1 in a kagillion to 1 in 52 million kagillion (give or take .0376 kagillion). |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 03:30 PM Post #25 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Sorry, but as I said earlier, evolutionary threory does not address beginnings, only evolution since then. For "things started in an electrified pool of ooz or sumptin akin" you need to go to Abiogenesis:
I'm curious. You argue that "getting life from non-life" "doesn't cut it with many". Isn't ID a theory that posits "getting life from non-life"? But that "doesn't cut it with many". "Because at the momment ID doesn't seem provable - is that a reason to chuck it?" Oh, no, just don't conflate it, a religious, or mathematical, or philosophical theory, with the very different animal of scientific theory, of which evolution is a part. Apples and oranges. Teach ID and other creation myths, as many above have suggested, in a comparative religion class, not in a science class. You are aware, aren't you that IDers like Michael Behe do not advocate teaching ID in science as well. "I think as more & more evidence mounts that shows things have a much more detailed make-up (yes design), then doesn't this tend to support the ID theory?" Could you cite some peer-reviewed scientific studies that have shown anything of the sort? That have posited a testable hypothesis or prediction--oops, already asked for that. Rhetorical, there are none. ID is also by this an example of argument from ignorance. "The findings & idea of irreducibly complex systems makes the odds that life came from an evolutionary process go from 1 in a kagillion to 1 in 52 million kagillion (give or take .0376 kagillion)." Findings? What findings? The idea is a mathematical theory expounded by William Demski who, drawing on Shannon's "A mathematical theory of communication", confuses information with entropy--see Icons of ID: Probability as information. The same argument applies here as with "getting life from non-life". If that's a probability of "1 in 52 million kagillion (give or take .0376 kagillion)" then that same seemingly impossible event is just as improbable for an intelligent designer. Quantum physics explains how even the smallest probability results in spontaneous order in the universe. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| TexasShadow | May 14 2006, 03:51 PM Post #26 |
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Jane
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well, then, one thing might go a long ways in helping alleviate religious concerns.... the science teacher should SAY that evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life itself, but only what happened afterward. the question of how it all began in the first place is yet unanswered by science, and the teacher should SAY so. |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 04:23 PM Post #27 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Yes, that sounds reasonable. Textbooks I've seen do, but I've seen only a few. If the textbook doesn't do this then attaching a note as some schools do to the effect that evolution is just science is fine as well. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| teryt | May 14 2006, 08:50 PM Post #28 |
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Missing in Action Member
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Ditto - the point I was going to make as well. This is the big problem I had in when my kids were in school - the teaching of evolution as it was the origins of life. OK Chris, I think I see your point in this. Trouble is, the whole idea of teaching any religion in public schools is trouble prone at best, so they usually stay away from it, or at least do a poor job of it. Likewise, they should refrain from teaching evolution as the big answer to everything. It is a good answer, to certain questions, but not to the question of where life itself came from. Yes. This is likely where we differ most. I think that as things are shown to be more & more complex & interdependant at the microbiological level, it will go towards the theory that there is intelligent design. Evolution, when it started, was just deemed a myth too (again, by many). The way I see evolution being taught is that it shows a common ancestry, and that chance made life happen. I do see a common ancestry, and all living things show some similarities, but for the reason that there was a common designer. So again, maybe there should be emphasis in schools, that evolution doesn't explain the origins of life, just the natural selection process afterwards - which accounts for a certain degree of modification of organisms. But this is where intelligent design can be mentioned in the biology classroom - the irreducibly complex systems theory. As far as I'm concerned, it's a much bigger leap of faith to say that the many complex systems & subsystems of the eye came about by chance of natural selection over time. ID is still pretty new, so the research will catch up - again, perhaps, as even single cells are shown to be much more complex than we dreamed. Question for you Chris: Have your read Behe's book in its entirety? |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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| cmoehle | May 14 2006, 09:34 PM Post #29 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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No, just pieces. Have you read Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design? ID is new? It's a form of the old teleological argument perhaps best argued by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, but traceable to Greek philosophers like Heraclitus, Plato, and others. "But this is where intelligent design can be mentioned in the biology classroom - the irreducibly complex systems theory." It's been debunked. See, for instance, Irreducible Complexity proven to evolve. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| teryt | May 15 2006, 09:54 AM Post #30 |
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Missing in Action Member
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I have read about the computer simulations. At 1st I thought it was almost laughable - that is, that we could try to simulate such things with computer models. But after some reflection, I see that it was a "good faith" attempt (as stated in this quote), with probable flaws.
Response to Lenski There seem to be "many" (you like that word, eh?) who have something of a vested interest in trying to debunk ID. At this point, there are likely far more shouting on that side. We shall see if the pendulum swings again to the other side. Also, whether or not ID is new, or we see it as new, seems irrelavant. As a wise man once said, "There is nothing new under the sun." I think we probably just rehash old thoughts most of the time, albeit with maybe some more sophistication at our disposal. A quote from the "Creationism's Trojan Horse": book: "but we've been around longer and have more scientists convinced, even if the scientifically illiterate public are not" (ad populum). |
My Boast is Christ ![]() Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then) Recovering Perfectionist Christian Hedonist | |
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