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Dumbing Down Of America, 2
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,653 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Good distinction between evolution and Evolutionary Theory, Eric.

I'm still working on order... :rolleyes:




Jane, I said "I took the time to substantiate the evolution of religion..."

You reply "it's presented as FACT. it's referred to as FACT...."

What I said? Here it is again, quoting myself, correctly, I hope, ;) :
Quote:
 
a multitude of religions--one might argue as many as there are believers.

Consider that for a moment, the ever bifurcation of dissenting religious beliefs. You know of course, that one result of evolution is speciation. Do you think that's the case with the evolution of religion? You know you could easily draw a sort of phylogenetic tree of that evolution.

How is that presented as fact?

It's an analogy. An analogy similar to the one Herbert Spencer used for economics after he's read Lamarck and other Evolutionary Theorists of the time--you know, survival-of-the-fittest Herbert Spencer. As an analogy I found it interesting enough to post, it works on a grand scale, but not a minute one, as Eric pointed out earlier. I would hardly base a theory on an analogy (as ID does), the biological mechanisms of evolutionary speciation are just not the social mechanisms of religious specialization. But the analogy is interesting. Which religion are fittest? Which will survive? Or, to be obscure, does society "enact Mr. Herbert Spencer's Social Statics"?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Eric
everyone in this discussion is well educated.
and everyone, including you, has seen the imagery of man descending from apes, so you know what I'm talking about.
there's even a funny one on the internet showing man coming from apes and then "degenerating" to ape like shape as he hunkers down over a computer.
humans tend to learn by pictures more than words... the picture makes a bigger emphasis than words.
that's why christians use stage craft like passion plays to teach their beliefs.
that's why movie theaters show pictures of hot dogs and cold drinks on the screen.

of the hundreds of pictoral graphs I have seen...all the ones with humans on it present man as coming from an ape-like creature...which is presented as the common ancestor of men and apes.

as I have said before, this doesn't bother me personally. I don't care what my ancient ancestors looked like and figure that every living thing started as an amoeba in the sea.
BUT
to date, no one has presented any evidence that cro-magon/homo sapiens proceeded from an earlier type of homonid.
in fact, it appears that humans like us just suddenly appeared around 100,000 years ago (give or take) and there is some argument in the anthropological world that neandertal is NOT related to us. So the missing link is still missing.

So... the imagery of man's evolution should be altered to be more honest. there should always be a big question mark between the ape like creatures and the image of man. Because it's still there.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Chris...
not arguing with you. :)

Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Like you won't answer for others but there's abundant morphological evidence in the fossil record and comparative anatomy, genetics of DNA sequencing, geographical distributions and other evidence from the history of the earth.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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ngc1514
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Quote:
 
of the hundreds of pictoral graphs I have seen...all the ones with humans on it present man as coming from an ape-like creature...which is presented as the common ancestor of men and apes.

Do you understand the HUGE difference between claiming man's descending from today's ape (chimps, gorillas, etc) and descending from an "ape-like creature?" And that this creature is a common ancestor?

This is the first time you, or any of the anti-evolutionary tribe, have made the distinction. Congratulations.

And yes, I have seen portrayals of man coming from the apes, but, as the one you mentioned, they were cartoons and not scientific representations. As Gould said so many times, "Evolution is not a tree, but a bush."

Simple question: if chimps and man don't share a common ancestry, why do we share 97 point something% of our genetic coding? A simple, non-evolutionary answer.

Quote:
 
to date, no one has presented any evidence that cro-magon/homo sapiens proceeded from an earlier type of homonid.


The obvious answers would include that the fossil evidence has yet to be found or that the transition was very fast - Punctuated Equilibria in Gould's theory. But you are invoking the God of the Gaps argument. Supposed a transitional form is found, you would then counter that something else is missing.

Sorry, expecting to have ALL the evidence and basing your contention against evolution on what hasn't yet been found (and may, quite possibly never be found) is poor science.

Posted ImageEric
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
And yes, I have seen portrayals of man coming from the apes, but, as the one you mentioned, they were cartoons and not scientific representations. As Gould said so many times, "Evolution is not a tree, but a bush."


my point is: the cartoons are used in scientific presentations. call it editorial bias or ignorance... it exists.

re god of gaps argument.
my point is: the GAP is there. It should be presented that way with a big question mark.

I'm not against teaching evolution in school, but when it comes to teaching that man evolved like any other creature, the teaching should make it clear that we are still looking.... that it's not a KNOWN fact that man evolved. we can say it looks that way, but it's circumstantial evidence. All I want from science is honesty.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
That's about all the closer you'll ever get with science, Jane. Science is based on, among other things, induction. No matter how overwhelming the evidence, the next piece could falsify the entire theory. But how many days does it take to confirm the sun will rise again in the east and set in the west? As Hume pointed out if you insist on sound deductive proofs for everything you'll starve to death. How many grains of sand make a heap?
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--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
May 31 2006, 03:45 PM
Ah, I see, you want to play linguistic games again. Style over substance.


In your May 31 2006, 07:53 AM Post post you quoted me as say this: "Insisting religion be taught in public classes,"?

I responded by saying "Um, my words were "insisting religion be taught in science classes". "

Then you quote me the correct way and reveal your mistake. Are all your arguments so careless?


I took the time to substantiate the evolution of religion, could you substantiate what you mean by "How 'bout the religion of evolution?"

Then I'll entertain an answer.

Opps - sorry, my bad (blame it on being tired last night - or one too many celebratory drinks watching the Sun's woop up on Dallas). I didn't even notice that mistake (substituting "public" for "science"). Purely unintentional on my part, but at least I know what you were talking about now! Fortunately, in this written medium, we can go back & see - otherwise we could have gone round & round much longer on this mistake, wondering what the other person was talking about! ;)

Regarding the "religion of evolution," Jane addressed this pretty well. Many leaps of faith seem to be taken in the name of this religion.

I keep hearing that no serious student of evolution makes the claims that we hear about it. I will grant you this possibility. However, the perception of at least 3 people in this thread is that many espoucing evolution do make certain claims as fact. Maybe not you guys, Eric & Chris, but there's a whole big world out there, and they seem to want to teach (preach to) kids in their own way regarding the religion of evolution. :preach:
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
if you insist on sound deductive proofs for everything you'll starve to death.


I agree with this, and will apply it to the study of religion, too.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Teryt "substituting "public" for "science""

Fruedian slip? Thanks for recognizing what I said.


"Regarding the "religion of evolution," Jane addressed this pretty well. Many leaps of faith seem to be taken in the name of this religion."

Miss the responses to her concerns? God of Gaps (leaps of faith) is a creationist argument. Your slip is showing again.


"However, the perception of at least 3 people in this thread is that many espoucing evolution do make certain claims as fact."

Cite some instances.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
TexasShadow
May 31 2006, 02:10 PM
Quote:
 
if you insist on sound deductive proofs for everything you'll starve to death.


I agree with this, and will apply it to the study of religion, too.

Always knew you were a skeptic at heart! :yes:
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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My thesis advisor is fond of saying, "If a preacher says, 'I can prove the existance of God,' or a scientist says, 'Just have faith in my theory,' run from both of them!"

:nono: :devil: :bolt:
My Boast is Christ :pray:
Soon to have MBA (I'll perhaps be smart then)
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teryt
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cmoehle
May 31 2006, 07:18 PM
Teryt "substituting "public" for "science""

Fruedian slip? Thanks for recognizing what I said.


"Regarding the "religion of evolution," Jane addressed this pretty well. Many leaps of faith seem to be taken in the name of this religion."

Miss the responses to her concerns? God of Gaps (leaps of faith) is a creationist argument. Your slip is showing again.


"However, the perception of at least 3 people in this thread is that many espoucing evolution do make certain claims as fact."

Cite some instances.

I did. You dismissed it. For the rest, you just have to have faith in my theory! :floorrollin:

"God of Gaps?" Haven't caught up on all that fully yet - I actually need to do some work today.

Chris - how do you do it!? That is, you have over 30,000 messages on here, and respond faster than anyone else! Tell me you have a life apart from this!
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Oh, I'd run, too.

So why the faith in ID?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
So why the faith in ID?


it isn't faith. it's circumstantial evidence... as much so as man's evolution from an ape like creature. ;)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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