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Dumbing Down Of America, 2
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 11:46 AM (5,654 Views)
ngc1514
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abradf2519
May 30 2006, 01:17 PM
From dictionary.com:
Order:
Quote:
 
A condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement among the separate elements of a group


Funny thing is, order implies inteligence, yet we ascribe it to evolution. I just don't get how anyone can talk about order and evolution at the same time. I think the reason is, you have to. You cannot talk about caos or accdental occurances with evolution because of the massive probabilities involved. Also, the evidence of order in nature is compeling.

Seems to me, evolutionists want it both ways, order, and the forutitous event (I would say the accidental event) that caused life to appear on the earth. To me these terms are contradictory and illogical.

People must remember that you can take garbage and re-arrange it into "art". (don't believe me? Go to the Brooklyn Musium of Art) IMHO, the garbage called evolution wrapped up in scientific biological terms becomes "The Theory" or the art. It seems that people are ignoring that it is really illogical or "garbage".

Dictionary.com! Dang, why didn't I think about checking out Dictionary.com to see what "order" actually means?

Now, Alan, I'm waiting for you to share your understanding of how your definition of order and the physical laws of the universe coincide. What "group" does gravity belong to? What are the "separate elements" of gravity? How is gravity "logical?" And how is gravity a "comprehensible arrangement" of anything?

I think Wikipedia's article on order is far more interesting than Alan's simplistic definition. Interestingly, there is no apparent meaning to order, in terms of the universe and physical law, other than the opposite of chaos. Order can be used in scientific classification or in several different modes in mathematics, but there is nothing about order as it relates to how the universe is put together.

Since the universe has always worked with and through natural laws, the universe has never been in a state of chaos. If you never have chaos, how can you say that you now have order?

Umm... where in your definition does it say that order implies intelligence? Come on... you just made that up! No one has yet convincingly argued that order has ANY meaning in the universe around us, but you jump right over that little "uh-oh" to claim it now implies intelligence.

Have you ever been to the beach and see the shells and pebbles laid out along the tide line in order of size? Was it intelligence or just wave action that ordered them so? How about the nice, orderly sequence of numbers in a repeating decimal. Was that intelligence at work or just the nature of the numbering system?

No one, other than you, has ascribed order to evolution. How is the change in allele frequency of a gene over time an orderly system?

"Also, the evidence of order in nature is compeling." Really? Compel me, Alan, compel me! First you need to define order and then show how it's compelling.

I await your response.


Your editorial on art was... um... unconvincing.









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abradf2519
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ngc1514
May 30 2006, 01:30 PM
Now, Alan, I'm waiting for you to share your understanding of how your definition of order and the physical laws of the universe coincide. What "group" does gravity belong to? What are the "separate elements" of gravity? How is gravity "logical?" And how is gravity a "comprehensible arrangement" of anything?

Gravity...If we didn't have it, we would fly off the planet! I think that's step 1 in the order of things. :floorrollin:

Quote:
 
I think Wikipedia's article on order is far more interesting than Alan's simplistic definition.


Not mine, dictionary.com's!

Quote:
 
Interestingly, there is no apparent meaning to order, in terms of the universe and physical law, other than the opposite of chaos.  Order can be used in scientific classification or in several different modes in mathematics, but there is nothing about order as it relates to how the universe is put together.


This is just spin. Why do you have to pervert the definition to suit your scientific opinions? You can't say it is caotic, because this is indefencible. and you can't say it is orderly because this implies ID.

Quote:
 
Since the universe has always worked with and through natural laws, the universe has never been in a state of chaos.  If you never have chaos, how can you say that you now have order?


This is double talk. How can you have order and no intelegence behind it?

Quote:
 
Umm... where in your definition does it say that order implies intelligence?  Come on... you just made that up!  No one has yet convincingly argued that order has ANY meaning in the universe around us, but you jump right over that little "uh-oh" to claim it now implies intelligence. 

Me and billions of other people think order implies intelegence. If you crash your RV into a bridge abutment (God forbid!), will it naturally fall apart in order? No. But if you take it apart piece by peice, and put the parts in order of size, this implies intelegence because of the order.

Quote:
 
Have you ever been to the beach and see the shells and pebbles laid out along the tide line in order of size?  Was it intelligence or just wave action that ordered them so?  How about the nice, orderly sequence of numbers in a repeating decimal.  Was that intelligence at work or just the nature of the numbering system? 

There is an order there that you are not seeing. The shells wash up on the beach to break down into sand.

Quote:
 
No one, other than you, has ascribed order to evolution.  How is the change in allele frequency of a gene over time an orderly system?

I don't ascribe to evolution, I just say there is evidence to support the theory.

Quote:
 
"Also, the evidence of order in nature is compeling."  Really?  Compel me, Alan, compel me!  First you need to define order and then show how it's compelling. 


I already did provide a definition. I wish I could compel you, I want to compel you, but your education and knowlege of how to defend evolution is getting in the way. Think beyond the talking points. What do you see when you look at nature? Caos or order? My guess is that you cannot answer the last question without a huge explination. Billions of people before you have said order.

Quote:
 
Your editorial on art was... um... unconvincing.


You need to go look at some modern art. It really is garbage!
Alan
Milan, New York, USA
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
abradf2519
May 30 2006, 12:51 PM
cmoehle
May 30 2006, 11:25 AM
I agree, Alan, your straw man argument is "contradictory and illogical".

Evolutionary theory is about the process of life, not its purpose, Alan. It's you who conflate the two confusingly in your post.

Evolution is not accidental as you seem to keep repeating erroneously.

Intelligence does not imply purpose anymore than evolution does.

No one here denies order in nature. But some impute more significance to it than is compelling.

Sorry Chris...but I think this is intelegently designed "spin" (no pun intended!)

Evolution is defined as a natural process (no inteligence involved), happening automatically, to what appears to be an orderly universe. How do you personally answer this?

You may be able to divorce the evidence of evolution from the orderly universe, but most people don't. To them, evolution means the earth was not designed.

You said "Intelligence does not imply purpose anymore than evolution does." Yes it does, because we are living in the results of the designer's purpose. One purpose is obvious, a world where life could flurish. There may be others, but then we get into religion.

Evolution seems to have a purpose also, the survival of the fittest. Even this seems to imply intelegence.

What is spin, Alan. If you make these sorts of claim and accusations, you ought to explain where and what and how it is spin. It is vacuous otherwise.



"How do you personally answer this?" What? Please give some meaning to "orderly universe"? Please provide something not explained by science.

You see, I divoce nothing, what you see is what you get from nature's laws, eveolution among them. You, on the other hand do divide the world in each and everything you say.


You respond that intelligence implies purpose because we live in the results of the designer's purpose.

Question, how do you connect our living, hardly flourishing, to a designer? What is the connection between the natural and the supernatural?

Question, what evidence do you have, even if there is a design, that the designer would have a purpose?

Question, use of the definite pronoun "the" belies your belief in who the designer is--just like those founders of ID, Johnson, Dembski and Behe.


How does "survival of the fittest" imply intelligence and purpose?

Incidently, "survival of the fittest" has little to do with evolution. It's a term Herbert Spencer coined for economics. Biologists use instead the phrase "natural selection".
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DocInBird
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Carl Sagan was asked by Johnny Carson if he believed in God. Note: this is from memory, so I cannot guarantee that all of the wording is fully accurate. Sagan replied, "If you are asking, do I believe that there are certain underlying principles that govern the universe, then yes."

Damn, do I miss this guy...
--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit is quite useful.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
I'm startng to wonder, after years of hearing about this Inteliigent Designer no one can explain using designs no one can test to create designs no one can describe for purposes no one can predict, if irreducible complexity isn't just irreducible mystery.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
May 31 2006, 03:32 AM
I'm startng to wonder, after years of hearing about this Inteliigent Designer no one can explain using designs no one can test to create designs no one can describe for purposes no one can predict, if irreducible complexity isn't just irreducible mystery.

I think that the only thing that will become solidified in your mind, is if you somehow meet this mysterious person. May we all be so fortunate.
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
teryt
May 30 2006, 11:31 PM
cmoehle
May 31 2006, 03:32 AM
I'm startng to wonder, after years of hearing about this Inteliigent Designer no one can explain using designs no one can test to create designs no one can describe for purposes no one can predict, if irreducible complexity isn't just irreducible mystery.

I think that the only thing that will become solidified in your mind, is if you somehow meet this mysterious person. May we all be so fortunate.

So it is religious interest rather than pursuit of scientific knowledge you're interested in?

You know I can respect that as your individual personal belief, have no trouble at all with that, that's what freedom of religion is all about. --So long as you respect my freedom as well and not denegrate me as unfortunate for not following your beliefs.

Pushing those beliefs into the public square, insisting religion be taught in science classes, is another matter and deserves debate.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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teryt
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cmoehle
May 31 2006, 09:58 AM
teryt
May 30 2006, 11:31 PM
cmoehle
May 31 2006, 03:32 AM
I'm startng to wonder, after years of hearing about this Inteliigent Designer no one can explain using designs no one can test to create designs no one can describe for purposes no one can predict, if irreducible complexity isn't just irreducible mystery.

I think that the only thing that will become solidified in your mind, is if you somehow meet this mysterious person. May we all be so fortunate.

So it is religious interest rather than pursuit of scientific knowledge you're interested in?

You know I can respect that as your individual personal belief, have no trouble at all with that, that's what freedom of religion is all about. --So long as you respect my freedom as well and not denegrate me as unfortunate for not following your beliefs.

Pushing those beliefs into the public square, insisting religion be taught in science classes, is another matter and deserves debate.

Let's face it - this what it really comes down to: figuring out the bottom line or meeting whomever is in charge. If the designer just came forward and said, "Here I am, I did this," wouldn't that be the culmination of all of human existance & life on earth?

"Insisting religion be taught in public classes,"? Well, we've been all through that, and those are your words. Just another viewpoint in my opinion, like evolution (which is a vigorously researched one).

"So it is religious interest rather than pursuit of scientific knowledge you're interested in?" One is not mutually exclusive of the other. :tiphat:
My Boast is Christ :pray:
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ngc1514
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abradf2519
May 30 2006, 05:15 PM


Quote:
 
This is just spin. Why do you have to pervert the definition to suit your scientific opinions? You can't say it is caotic, because this is indefencible. and you can't say it is orderly because this implies ID.

Chaotic and order both have definitions. Systems - weather, smoke rising from a cigarette,, any of a number of non-deterministic systems - can be chaotic, but, at the bottom of the most chaotic system, there remain the physical laws of the universe. The system is chaotic on a large scale, but not small.

I can say it's not chaotic because we are talking about small systems; how elemental particles act, how atoms act. I can also say it's not ordered because for there to be order there must also have been a preceeding unordered, chaotic system from which order developed. If there was never a state of chaos against which to measure the present system, how can you KNOW it's ordered?

The universe isn't orderly or chaotic - it simply is.

I'm not "perverting" the definition you so diligently dug up, but asking how this defintion applies to the discussion and universe at large. If it doesn't edify, it's not a very useful definition, is it?

Quote:
 
This is double talk. How can you have order and no intelegence behind it?


Ummm... you are the one advancing the idea that the universe has order, not I. Fortunately, as a gentleman, I won't step through the door you just left gapingly ajar with your comment! Again, I offer my example of shells ordered by size at the tidal line. Wave action or intelligence?

Quote:
 
Me and billions of other people think order implies intelegence. If you crash your RV into a bridge abutment (God forbid!), will it naturally fall apart in order? No. But if you take it apart piece by peice, and put the parts in order of size, this implies intelegence because of the order.


You do realize that billions of people thinking something doesn't make it true. I'm sure Teryt will be able to help you understand the logical fallacy in your thinking.

We have already accepted that large scale system can be chaotic. I'll be much more impressed when you show that tearing water molecules apart sometimes results in 2 atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen and, at other times, you end up with 2 atoms of oxygen, one of hydrogen, 6 of helium and 2 of neptunium. Do you only get the boring H2 and O because of intelligence or because that's the way the universe works? And when you put them back together, you never end up with gold... just water.

Quote:
 
There is an order there that you are not seeing. The shells wash up on the beach to break down into sand.

Well, that analogy passed about 35 feet over your head. Alas, I mentioned the same analogy earlier in this message. Just ignore it before you give yourself a brainache.

Quote:
 

I already did provide a definition. I wish I could compel you, I want to compel you, but your education and knowlege of how to defend evolution is getting in the way. Think beyond the talking points. What do you see when you look at nature? Caos or order? My guess is that you cannot answer the last question without a huge explination. Billions of people before you have said order.


Ah, it's education that gets in the way! In other words, compelling is easier when the other person doesn't know anything about the subject. Defending evolution is easy because all the evidence points to it.

What do I see when I look at nature? Hmmm... tough call, Alan! You got me, Alan... I bleed, I bleed!

Just kidding. I don't see either order or chaos - I see the universe as it is. A manifestation across billions of years and billions of light years, made up of billions of galaxies and hundreds of trillion stars all following the simple mathematical descriptions we call the "laws of nature."

Sorry to disappoint you in being able to answer the question without a huge explanation.

Quote:
 
You need to go look at some modern art. It really is garbage!


A much more honest answer would have been "I don't understand what the artist was trying to say with this composition, and because I don't, I classify it as garbage."

Van Gogh never sold a painting during his life - the art world considered his art to be garbage. Not sure about you, but I'd sure enjoy having some of his works (originals and not the prints we do have) on our walls. I never get tired of looking at his "Irises" or "Alle des Alyscamps" It was thrilling to stand on the very spot where Van Gogh stood when he painted Alyscamps.

Pardon me for not accepting your art criticism or your science.



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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Teryt: ""Insisting religion be taught in public classes,"? Well, we've been all through that, and those are your words. Just another viewpoint in my opinion, like evolution (which is a vigorously researched one)."

Um, my words were "insisting religion be taught in science classes". Please don't change my words and then argue your own--classic straw man.

If you argue everything is just another viewpoint, that is moral relativism to the extreme. Viewpoints, I would argue, have value in context, here, science classes and public schools.


""So it is religious interest rather than pursuit of scientific knowledge you're interested in?" One is not mutually exclusive of the other."

True, but in this discussion you have argued ID as science. Now you've changed positions, to a religious one. I'm just calling attention to that, and asking has that been your position all along.

It is true, one is not exclusive. Not that it's a popularity contest, but I read last night where 89.6% of Chistians belong to major denominations that accept evolution. And it's well know many scientists are religious but have no trouble distinguishing religion from science.

Another thing, do you realize there is one science, but a multitude of religions--one might argue as many as there are believers.

Consider that for a moment, the ever bifurcation of dissenting religious beliefs. You know of course, that one result of evolution is speciation. Do you think that's the case with the evolution of religion? You know you could easily draw a sort of phylogenetic tree of that evolution.
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teryt
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"Evolution of religion"? How 'bout the religion of evolution?
Quote:
 
Um, my words were "insisting religion be taught in science classes". Please don't change my words and then argue your own--classic straw man.

:scratch:
Nope - those were your words - cut & pasted from your posting:
Quote:
 
Pushing those beliefs into the public square, insisting religion be taught in science classes, is another matter and deserves debate.


Tag - yer it! :bolt:
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Ah, I see, you want to play linguistic games again. Style over substance.


In your May 31 2006, 07:53 AM Post post you quoted me as say this: "Insisting religion be taught in public classes,"?

I responded by saying "Um, my words were "insisting religion be taught in science classes". "

Then you quote me the correct way and reveal your mistake. Are all your arguments so careless?


I took the time to substantiate the evolution of religion, could you substantiate what you mean by "How 'bout the religion of evolution?"

Then I'll entertain an answer.
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TexasShadow
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Quote:
 
I took the time to substantiate the evolution of religion, could you substantiate what you mean by "How 'bout the religion of evolution?"


don't know what Teryt will say, but I'll jump on this one because it's basically what my gripe is re teaching evolution in schools and further support of it throughout the world.
it's presented as FACT. it's referred to as FACT.... by the media and, in general, the rest of the world.
we who bothered to further our education, know that it's PROBABLY true, apparently true by the study of fossils, but not a proven fact yet.
but for many many people, it's just a given, and it starts in school with pictures that present the imagery of man descending from the apes, etc.

and this is the way that religion is taught to children. certain "facts" are presented as such.... no question about it, this is the way it is.
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ngc1514
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TexasShadow
May 31 2006, 01:07 PM
Quote:
 
I took the time to substantiate the evolution of religion, could you substantiate what you mean by "How 'bout the religion of evolution?"


don't know what Teryt will say, but I'll jump on this one because it's basically what my gripe is re teaching evolution in schools and further support of it throughout the world.
it's presented as FACT. it's referred to as FACT.... by the media and, in general, the rest of the world.
we who bothered to further our education, know that it's PROBABLY true, apparently true by the study of fossils, but not a proven fact yet.
but for many many people, it's just a given, and it starts in school with pictures that present the imagery of man descending from the apes, etc.

and this is the way that religion is taught to children. certain "facts" are presented as such.... no question about it, this is the way it is.

You are not differentiating between evolution and the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is fact and, for the umpty-umpth time defined scientifically as the change (come on, we all know the words to this song by now!) in allele frequency of a gene over time.

The Theory of Evolution discusses the change in earth's lifeforms over the 3.5 billion years that life has existed on the planet. There are tons of data to support the theory, but it only takes one contrary observation to tear down the theory. Why do you think the Fundie Nutz were so excited at what they thought were human foot prints at the Paluxy River in Texas?

Have you noticed that the only here people calling the Theory of Evolution fact is you, Alan and a few of the other non-evolutionay proponents? I've never called it a fact, Chris hasn't and I have yet to have any of those making this claim offer any evidence to support it other than the anecdotal.

I know, you don't have the time or interest to show how the National Geographic showed it as a fact and how we evolved from apes. None of the ID/creationism proponents here have bothered to follow up their claim of evoution being presented as fact with a lick o' data.

Odd.

Maybe I didn't "further [my] education" enough? Whatcha think?



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