While Europe Slept

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While Europe Slept
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 18 2006, 08:01 AM (436 Views)
Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 08:01 AM Post #1
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer *"Indulgent, hands-off policies toward radical Muslim immigrants – plenty of welfare with no pressure to assimilate – have produced ominous results" "The Man Who Came to Dinner* ... "the Hollywood story from 1942 of the lecturer who turns up unannounced in the house of a well-to-do Ohio family, stays on forever and eventually takes over the household. The movie was a comedy, and what has been happening in Denmark and throughout Europe in recent years is anything but funny." .... "In Stockholm, Islamic residents have been known to wear T-shirts that say simply: ‘2030 – then we take over.'" Interesting book! U.S. and Canada might be well served to read the book and watch the movie and to keep in mind the mistakes and consequences that Europe and the Ohio family made and created for themselves and to consider humanitarian policies so as to not make those same mistakes to an irreparable degree (if we haven't already done so) in our hemisphere. Tolerance vs intolerance. Which is the stronger force and how do you humanly keep the peace?
	Banan


cmoehle	Feb 18 2006, 08:35 AM Post #2
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	By accepting the personal right of conscience to believe, or not, while insisting on the social responsibility that accompanies all rights. Taking that one step further, by accepting another's right of conscience and taking your right to criticize it, responsibly. In short, by applying a recursive principle of reciprocity. Europe seems to lean too far toward political (or religious) correctness with respect not only for the right, but also for the belief. I think we see the same here in the generally accepted taboo against discussing religion and the generally seen reaction believers are being attacked. Peace will come by respecting the right, not the belief.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 09:20 AM Post #3
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	"Peace will come by respecting the right, not the belief." And I am sure you would agree that respect applies from both/all directions. also from the article/book: "...In Denmark, Muslims make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays. Their preachers have told them, Mr. Bawer reports, that only a fool would not take maximum advantage of the bounty theWestern Europe offers and that it is perfectly legitimate to cheat and lie. The benefits they receive are a kind of 'jizya'..... "....and it is of course true that a limited number of imigrants could have been absorbed if the authorities had handled them appropriately: providing work rather than social welfare; giving strong incentives to learn the language and to respect the customs of the host country; and expelling the hate preachers....... "....as in Britain until recently, there was also the naive assumption that if you leave 'militants' in peace and keep them reasonably happy by subsidizing them and their activities they will not cause harm. Now, all of Europe faces the potentially devastating consequences of such misguided thinking."
	Banan


Jose Angemon	Feb 18 2006, 09:22 AM Post #4
Member Posts: 19 Group: Members Member #252 Joined: January 8, 2006	It is hard to be tolerant and successful when dealing with a people consumed with a total absolute intolerance of their own. Our own tolerance, compassion and sense of fair play are being used against us.
	"Considering that we all enter the world the same way and leave in the same condition, we spend an awful lot of time in between trying to show that we are so different from other people. " Thomas Sowell American Economist and Writer


cmoehle	Feb 18 2006, 09:22 AM Post #5
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	"And I am sure you would agree that respect applies from both/all directions." As I said, "In short, by applying a recursive principle of reciprocity." Big words for golden rule. "...naive assumption that if you leave 'militants' in peace and keep them reasonably happy by subsidizing them and their activities they will not cause harm." Very naive, whether it's Muslim militants in Europe or Christian militants here.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 09:27 AM Post #6
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	I wasn't intending to make this a religious subject (Christians vs Muslims). I think the author's thinking is more along cultural lines and immigration difficulties and when/where is tolerance and intolerance appropriate/necessary. His theme didn't seem to be religious so much a cultural (realizing that religious in one characterist that influences culture).
	Banan


cmoehle	Feb 18 2006, 09:35 AM Post #7
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Wasn't aware there were such a thing as cultural militants. But I'm not making it a religious thing. I am taking a principle and applying it to two similar situations. Principles are worth much if only applied to them.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 09:43 AM Post #8
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	I don't think the author or I mentioned the phrase "cultural militants" ..the author's theme (although the immigrants mentioned were "Muslim") seemed more focused on an immigration/assimilation issue from an immigrating dominant cultural society and how it is/was handled by the host countries moreso than a religion vs religion issue.
	Banan


cmoehle	Feb 18 2006, 10:00 AM Post #9
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	So, do you disagree with the principle I initially provided in response to your question? Or are you hung up on my examples of its application.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 10:58 AM Post #10
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	I agree with you 110%.
	Banan


bikemanb	Feb 18 2006, 12:38 PM Post #11
Liberal Conservative Posts: 3,259 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: June 6, 2004	Please remember there is an object lesson here. Europe tolerated this invasion for the price of cheap labor when their economies were booming. The Muslims are Europe’s Mexicans.
	Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin


cmoehle	Feb 18 2006, 12:44 PM Post #12
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Another good analogy. But what principle, call for the government to level the playing field with fair wages, or stop government from blocking assimulation through, for example, bilingualism, thereby effectively isolating Mexicans as a permanent cheap labor force?
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 18 2006, 03:39 PM Post #13
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	bikemanb Feb 18 2006, 01:38 PM Please remember there is an object lesson here........... The Muslims are Europe’s Mexicans. With our Mexican immigration analogy, we have a dominant (more than a few) cultural society immigrating and being assimilated (passively and/or actively) into a nation with a dissimilar culture. One thing in our favor, while religious differences in Europe componds their tolerance/intolerance problem, Mexicans and Americans are predominantly Christian peoples but culturally different. But still, the U.S. and Canada can make the same assimilation requirement mistakes as did Europe. Tolerance/intolerance, indulgences/over-indulgences by the host toward the immigrant and tolerance/intolerance and assimilation resistance by the immigrant can, by Europes example, create major problems for any nation. Who should have the upper hand on assimilation issues? Does the fist meeting the nose rule apply? Should immigation policies be clear and enforced before citizenship is offered? As Bikemanb points out, Europe's manual labor needs took preference over their immigration/assimilation policies only to reap a greater problem down the road for both the host country and the immigrant. Is the U.S. (and Canada) well along in the process of doing the same? Because of the religious differences and to the extent that Europe's religious differences are a greater conflicting/compounding issue, might their problem be more potentially damaging than that of the U.S. / Mexican?
	Banan


Stoney	Feb 18 2006, 03:59 PM Post #14
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	I don't see the correlation with our Mexican immigrants. As Bana points out, we don't have the religious cultures. I remember reading one of these articles that indicated as many as forty percent of the Islamics in Europe are being supported by state welfare programs. I don't see that where I am, but it may be so in other areas. Mexican illegals are assimilating into our communities through schools. Again, I can only speak for our community, but it seems to be working pretty well. here. I think there is a limit to what we can support.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


brewster	Feb 18 2006, 04:09 PM Post #15
Winemaker Extraordinaire Posts: 3,467 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: June 21, 2004	I remember watching a documentary following several Muslim families who were moving to Canada. The adults were given the royal treatment, and shown how our free enterprise, free speech, tolerance, education for all, etc. made life so much easier and better. At least two of the Muslim Patriachs were absolutely outraged at the "looseness" of our society, and were absolutely convinced that we were all not only going to Hell, but were at least 2/3 of the way there already! 3 out of 5 of the families returned to their mother country. It's difficult to know how well "assimilation" could work with any large group of immigrants with such differing social views.
	My Favourite Campsite Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta


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