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Should We "flunk" Our Free Trade Policy?; Based on this performance i would.
Topic Started: Feb 17 2006, 08:11 PM (876 Views)
Stoney
Huntsville, AL
Making more or less – shouldn't we factor in future tax obligations?

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 19 Feb 2006 at 11:54:34 PM GMT is: $ 8, 247, 366, 139, 150.11

The estimated population of the United States is 298,571,317
so each citizen's share of this debt is $27,622.77. Note that is not every working person, but for everyone taking a breath.

Source.

The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way.

Henry David Thoreau
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brewster
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
Chris: sorry it took so long to get back...

Your link was interesting, and I assume it was inserted to prove that the US isn't doing all that badly. As such, it's a rather poor proof, as it really shows virtual stagnation since 2000, IMO a precursor to a gradual slide.

I wasn't trying to pick on the US only. As I mentioned several times, the Canadian record is no better, and certainly not as good if you factor out Alberta's exceptional performance.

Quote:
 
As an afterthought, it seems you are taking our current overreaching centralized big governmental system and its failures as an argument against what I advocate, a small limited governmental system dedicated to economic, personal and political freedoms. You are, in effect, arguing my point.
I might very well be arguing your point. I was a little confused as to what it was, and upon rereading, even more so. You started by claiming you wanted a system where every area would have its own laws, then virtually no laws, then some regulation, which is where I would expect the final solution to arrive...

Quote:
 
Business moves where they find the greatest amount of economic freedom. They are leaving the US because it is losing that freedom for centralized big government control--uh, what you seem to be advocating, apparently on a global scale.
Me? I'm not advocating anything other than discussion, and coming to a real understanding of what the best possible solution would be. All you would need to get your "Small Government, Maximum Freedom" society enacted would be to convince the rest of the group that it really would be the best solution...

Quote:
 
"Just when I think there's some hope for you, you lose it...."

Arrogance convinces no one.

Sorry, that was my attempt at humour, obviously not very successful.
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Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Bruce "I might very well be arguing your point."

And you continue to do so. For example "I assume it was inserted to prove that the US isn't doing all that badly." You also seem to assume that we now have a limited, non-interfering government. And based on those two assumptions, draw the conclusion limited, non-interfering government doesn't work. And further, that, therefore, global, interfering government must.

Problem is your first conclusion, while logical, is based on erroneous assumptions. Where the US is doing poorly, and, moreover, where it could be doing better, but is held back, is overreaching overregulation by government of business. Rule of law is intended to be applied not to business but government.

And your final conclusion begs the question of supporting what you advocate instead: A version of globalized government, or to use your words, "One coherent set of laws, guiding not blocking Free Enterprise so that it can expand without jumping through a million hoops is what's needed. Separate Regulations for each area are precisely what is NOT needed." --So much for "not advocating anything".


"All you would need to get your "Small Government, Maximum Freedom" society enacted would be to convince the rest of the group that it really would be the best solution..."

Or I could point to our Constitution, which would convince any individual our government has no business. Not that that would convince anyone depending on feeding at the welfare trough of collectivism.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Stoney
Huntsville, AL
Certainly government is part of the problem and maybe the vehicle that brought us some other problems. Some statistics:

Quote:
 
Recent figures that appeared in the American Conservative magazine over the past two decades, years during Greenspan's tenure are startling:

    * Home mortgage debt has risen from $1.8 Trillion to $8.2 Trillion
    * Consumer debt has risen from $2.7 Trillion to $11 Trillion
    * Household debt has quadrupled
    * The personal savings rate has gone from 11% to
      -1%
    * US federal deficit during the Reagan administration was $2 Trillion and is now $8 Trillion
    * The US trade deficit has gone from $150 Billion per year to $726 Billion per year ($3.0 Trillion cumulatively over the past 20 years)
    * $11 Trillion of US assets are now held in foreign hands (roughly 20% of all US assets)


Source

Not only is the government borrowing wildly, but the general public is as well. We don't seem to be handling our own finances responsibly. Maybe at least some of that comes from a society that considers the government responsible for its wages, heath care, and retirement.
The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way.

Henry David Thoreau
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brewster
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Quote:
 
And based on those two assumptions, draw the conclusion limited, non-interfering government doesn't work.
And you accuse OTHERS of making straw men! I never made ANY such assumption!

History has repeatedly shown that Laissez Faire capitalism fails, every time! I challenge you to show ONE CASE, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD where the majority of the citizens were better off over a period of say 20 years of this sort of capitalism.

Quote:
 
And your final conclusion begs the question of supporting what you advocate instead: A version of globalized government, or to use your words, "One coherent set of laws, guiding not blocking Free Enterprise so that it can expand without jumping through a million hoops is what's needed. Separate Regulations for each area are precisely what is NOT needed." --So much for "not advocating anything".


Okay, I admit, I forgot my own stuff for a moment. Although I wasn't thinking of globalization, simply the US position. But I'll stick to my conclusion. For the US to substitute the myriad of national and state laws for a myriad of state or smaller unit laws would get you nowhere, even though each area would have fewer laws. There is no reason states couldn't insert their own "flavour", but the basic definitions and vision need to be the same.

It doesn't change the final argument. I'm not in any position to determine what the US does, but if you were in the groups, you would. And if you could somehow convince the rest that your version of economics would be the best, that's what you should do, even if I personally view it as economic and national suicide.
Posted Image My Favourite Campsite
Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Yes, that is ultimately the problem people spending beyond their means. Whether it's because of government influencing people or vice versa is a chicken vs egg thing, and likely a vicious cycle, with more government regulation only exaserbating the problem.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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brewster
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Quote:
 
Not only is the government borrowing wildly, but the general public is as well. We don't seem to be handling our own finances responsibly. Maybe at least some of that comes from a society that considers the government responsible for its wages, heath care, and retirement.

I don't think so, Stoney. It sounds more like a society that hasn't considered responsibility at all...

Canadians went through 20 years of that sort of incredible growth on both gov't and personal spending, and it wasn't until our GDP dropped right out of sight that many started to wonder if there wasn't a better way... We still have a large minority who cannot see why they should worry about the future.
Posted Image My Favourite Campsite
Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta
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brewster
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Chris:
Quote:
 
Or I could point to our Constitution, which would convince any individual our government has no business.

Could you educate a poor ignorant Canadian?

I just looked up the US Constitution, and searched for "business" - nothing.

Then I looked up "commerce" - and got this: (Bolding is mine)
Quote:
 
Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be
uniform throughout the United States;


To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and
with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject
of Bankruptcies
throughout the United States;


I've probably got it all wrong, but...
Posted Image My Favourite Campsite
Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta
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Stoney
Huntsville, AL
Quote:
 
It sounds more like a society that hasn't considered responsibility at all...


I gave some allowance by saying "some." The "Great Depression" is what my parents always talked about when I tried to encourage them to spend a little on themselves. Those starting out today don't seem to need much encouragement.

I still tie much of it to a generation who relies too much on government.
The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way.

Henry David Thoreau
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Uniformity and regulation in terms of consistency has to do with rule of law. Businesses and people need to know where and how the government is limited and they are free to make, honor and defends contracts.

Natualization has to do with imigration, not trade. Bankruptcy is not trade.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
It was government regulation and bungling that cause the Great Depression.


Stoney, I may have posted this earlier, but here's an economist, Arnold Kling, who in The Politics of Economic Nationalism addresses the same thing as I think you are:
Quote:
 
All that said, the nationality of the holders of our government debt is irrelevant. We are eventually going to be forced to pay taxes to cover the interest and the principal, whether the bondholders live in Tokyo or Peoria. If you want a useful measure of collective liabilities, look at the total future commitments of the government (including payments promised under Social Security and Medicare as well as outstanding debt). Those figures are much more important indicators of future problems than the statistics on the balance of trade or the amount of government debt held by foreigners.


Social Security, Medicare, good examples of well-intentioned central government creating enourmous problems so many now depend on. Just what we need, more of that.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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