Christians Proclaim "no Conflict"

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Christians Proclaim "no Conflict"; between evolution and biblical creation
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 13 2006, 10:53 AM (898 Views)
abradf2519	Feb 16 2006, 08:47 AM Post #16
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	cmoehle Feb 16 2006, 06:11 AM There's a little irony lurking here in the claim that mainstream Christianity rejects evolution. You have to look back in history a little bit to know that Christian fundamentalism actually had its origins, with the publication of "The Fundamentals" around 1910, as a reaction to two scientific developments. One was German Bible criticism that focuses on the authors, dates, and places a test is created, especially Biblical texts. The other was Darwinism, the most popular version of evolutionary theory back then, with this reaction culminating in the Scopes Trial or 1925. As such, fundamentalism is but a religious right faction within various Christian denominations and can hardly be called mainstream. "Mainstream" is a matter of numbers maybe? from dictionary.com: Quote: The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity: “You need not accept the nominee's ideology, only be able to locate it in the American mainstream” (Charles Krauthammer). You imply it is not...
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


cmoehle	Feb 16 2006, 09:35 AM Post #17
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	""Mainstream" is a matter of numbers maybe?" Bell curve. Religiously conservative rejecters of evolution on the right can hardly be considered mainstream. "You imply it is not..." Most certainly, I do. Of course the name of the game is to claim mainstream and hope the silent majority doesn't wake up and say "Excuse me?"
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


brewster	Feb 16 2006, 10:04 AM Post #18
Winemaker Extraordinaire Posts: 3,467 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: June 21, 2004	Quote: The question I have is: Are they talking about "Evolution" or "abiogenesis"? Abiogenesis directly contradicts the concept of creation. My church accepts both. Why are you so anxious to limit HOW God created/developed life???
	My Favourite Campsite Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta


cmoehle	Feb 16 2006, 10:35 AM Post #19
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Missed that one. Generally, evolution theory does not address creation. Scientisits don't generally conflate these two. How does abiogenesis contratict creation? Doesn't Genesis purport man made from mud?
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


abradf2519	Feb 16 2006, 11:24 AM Post #20
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	Abiogenesis says life happened by accident, or if you don't like that term, life happened by a fortunate event. The bible or the Torah says that God "created". No accident or fortunate event. This is a direct conradiction. Let me guess...you all say that the Genesis story is allegory.... To me, this makes no sense. Why believe a God that says he created, when you think that he didn't really create, life happened by a fortunate event, and he took credit for it. Sounds like a manager I used to have....
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


cmoehle	Feb 16 2006, 11:35 AM Post #21
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	"Abiogenesis says life happened by accident, or if you don't like that term, life happened by a fortunate event." Definition I'm familiar with is more along the lines of generation of life from non-living matter. It describes a process, hypothesizes how it happened, not why, as in design or accident. So where's the contradiction? Are you referring to the older spontaeous generation disproved by Pasteur? Allegory, or myth. But saying so does not imply any of what you say: "Why believe a God that says he created, when you think that he didn't really create, life happened by a fortunate event, and he took credit for it." Not at all. That doesn't make sense. Too easy. The Biblical materialistic how is not the message, and therefore unimportant as anything other than a means of conveying the message, the spiritual why. Science is about how, religion why.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


brewster	Feb 16 2006, 11:40 AM Post #22
Winemaker Extraordinaire Posts: 3,467 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: June 21, 2004	Quote: Abiogenesis says life happened by accident, or if you don't like that term, life happened by a fortunate event. Life was not the result of a "fortunate event", it happened through an inevitable consequence of chemistry. I watched a show on the Discovery channel in the last couple of months discussing asteroids. One of the newest discoveries (just in the last 6 mos) is that when asteroids containing simple amino acids crash to earth, the ferocious forces involved convert those acids to proteins EVERY TIME! They were able to duplicate this in the lab repeatedly. The one major step left that Man has not been able to duplicate (lots of minor ones) is the conversion of proteins to primitive RNA - I'm sure it's just another, so far unknown, form of chemistry. If you wish to say that God set up those chemical processes, who am I to argue?
	My Favourite Campsite Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta


abradf2519	Feb 16 2006, 12:02 PM Post #23
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	Actually, the bible describes "how", not "why". The genesis story says: Quote: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. Genesis 1: 1-3 No one knows why God created the heavens and the earth.
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


brewster	Feb 16 2006, 12:15 PM Post #24
Winemaker Extraordinaire Posts: 3,467 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: June 21, 2004	I don't see much "How" there, but it DOES sound like the Big Bang....
	My Favourite Campsite Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta


cmoehle	Feb 16 2006, 12:23 PM Post #25
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	abradf2519 Feb 16 2006, 01:02 PM Actually, the bible describes "how", not "why". The genesis story says: Quote: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. Genesis 1: 1-3 No one knows why God created the heavens and the earth. Seems you miss the message then. How is not simply a list of what was created. Like light, there's no explanation how it was created, just that it existed, or came into existence. Everyone can see that light exists, not very profound that. Why has to do with those events in relation to man. You're not serious you don't see that, are you? The two Genesis stories contradict each other in the order of things created. A literal reading fails on that account, which is unimportant in a metaphorical reading.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


abradf2519	Feb 16 2006, 02:19 PM Post #26
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	"How" is God speaking. ("God said let there be light") From 1 peter 3:5 Quote: For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, And Hebrews 11:3 Quote: By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. God used his own voice as a tool to create the earth.
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


brewster	Feb 16 2006, 02:42 PM Post #27
Winemaker Extraordinaire Posts: 3,467 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: June 21, 2004	Hard to argue with that... But faith based statements won't sway many people these days.
	My Favourite Campsite Bow Valley Provincial Park, Kananaskis Country, Alberta


cmoehle	Feb 16 2006, 03:05 PM Post #28
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	"God used his own voice as a tool to create the earth." Metaphorically speaking. Word (logos) is hardly limited to speech, or voice, but to thought, logic, reason, principle: As John 1:1 explains, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Or, limited to voice, we're back at the anthropomorphic problem of who made Who in whose image.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


abradf2519	Feb 16 2006, 03:15 PM Post #29
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	brewster Feb 16 2006, 02:42 PM Hard to argue with that... But faith based statements won't sway many people these days. I agree. According to the Bible, God thinks Faith is very important. Why? because he cannot explain everything to us, we would not understand with our limited experience. He said he "spoke" the world into exsistance. How does this work? I don't know, and cannot explain it, but by Faith, I believe it. My problem is that people who find stuff like this diffcult to believe then say the creation story is a myth or an allegory. It is not written like a myth or an allegory, it is written as history. People want things both ways, they want to believe in God, but parts of the bible are too unbelievable to them, so they dismiss them as myth or allegory. The problem with doing this is, what then exactly then is Christianity? For me, its simple. Christianity is defined in the bible. What God thinks about things is defined by the bible. Creation is documented in the bible. What is sin and what isn't sin is defined by the bible. If you don't take the literal parts of the bible as literal and the allegoracle parts are allegory, then what is true about God and what isn't? Denominations then take it upon themselves to define what Chistianity is to them, and then the slippery slope appears, and they end up virually believing in nothing. When someone does something evil, and then uses Christianity to justify what they did, how can we then say they are wrong, and Christianity doesn't teach that what they did is really evil? If you don't take the bible literally, you may not be able to use the bible to define what they did as being wrong. This is why some people can say Christianity justified Hitler, because they don't see the bible as being the source of what Christianity is. The bible most certainly condems the acts of Hitler, and if he believed that the bible was the word of God, he could not have used Christianity to justify what he did.
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


CalRed	Feb 16 2006, 03:26 PM Post #30
Member Posts: 1,087 Group: Members Member #128 Joined: November 30, 2004	Very good.
	Something instead of Nothing? "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage


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