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| Life After Death | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2006, 05:02 PM (914 Views) | |
| Banandangees | Feb 13 2006, 10:00 AM Post #46 |
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In your words, what am I judging. Do not "some" think it mystical? Are those who say it mystical, are they making a judgement? |
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| cmoehle | Feb 13 2006, 10:06 AM Post #47 |
Chris - San Antonio TX
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You're making a relativistic and I might add elitist value judgment of your beliefs over others. Given that the entire basis of your judgment is as silverfox put it, "Who knows?", it's not much to stand in judgment on. As you yourself-corrected: "But, if one rathers to be more factual than faithful and stand on their own strengths ..... well, that's okay too. To each his own." |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 13 2006, 10:25 AM Post #48 |
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You say: "I have no need to judge them." in one post. Go on to write about my making judgements. Then go on to make a few judgements of your own.
. You accuse yourself. I'm hazarding a guess here, but maybe it's just another case of you taking someone's simple, straight forward opinion comment and making it into a complex, label-laden, ramble of words that somehow is "truth" and not judgement, something bordering on "elitist values." But, maybe it's so ingreained you don't notice? |
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| cmoehle | Feb 13 2006, 06:11 PM Post #49 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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"I'm hazarding a guess here, but maybe it's just another case of you taking someone's simple, straight forward opinion comment and making it into a complex, label-laden, ramble of words that somehow is "truth" and not judgement, something bordering on "elitist values."" My sentences are much simpler than that. Hey, you made a value judgment. Sorry I called you on it. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 13 2006, 07:21 PM Post #50 |
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Okay ... all's fair. And I'm sorry I called you on yours. |
| Banan | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 13 2006, 07:46 PM Post #51 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Where did I judge my beliefs above yours? Can you point that out? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 14 2006, 04:33 AM Post #52 |
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Narrowing it down to specific types of judgements are you? From my comment to PRT, you judge that I make elitist judgements. That assumes that your judgement is correct. That itself could also be judged to be an "elitist" judgement as some may not agree with you. In circles we go. This could go on for ever and we probably bore folks with the issue of judgements. Lets just say we don't, and probably won't, agree and let it go at that. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2006, 05:49 AM Post #53 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Well, banan, you're the one taking it in circles. I made a legitimate comment on your judgmental post. Rather than respond to that challenge directly, you dance around it attempting to obfuscate it into a personal squabble between you and me. I do not accept that, and rather than going in your circles, I'll go back to my challenge to what you said. One, how is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise", banan? What, if you know, makes you think so? Two, what is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise" than? What, if you know, are you comparing to? Now you decide if you want to respond to that. You will note that I have done exactly that, responded to each of your comments and challenges. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Stoney | Feb 14 2006, 06:40 AM Post #54 |
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The use of the term “elite” in the context of a belief is maybe a little harsh. If I hold my belief as true, it doesn't necessarily follow that I hold your's in contempt. It maybe better describes a state of mind, being open or closed. When other ideas are introduced a closed mind might defend one view and either ignore or attack another. An open mind will simply question a view, either outwardly or inwardly, in order to seek it's strengths and weaknesses. We all hold some ideas or beliefs that are closed. It's again a term that holds some inference of bad, but is not necessarily so. I believe that I was the one who introduced the term “mystical” in this thread. I meant it in the cosmic sense that an afterlife or after death experience is incomprehensible to me. I don't dismiss it. I just can't imagine what it would be. Many things in life are beyond my comprehension. |
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The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2006, 07:26 AM Post #55 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Right, introduced as comment to what I was saying, and have said elsewhere about the literalness of some Chistians missing the mystery. I think it is easily noted that elitism was raised when, rather than responding to a challenge to that judgment, it was spun into a personal attack. Unjustified judgment is to me the epitome of elitism expressing a better-than-thou attitude. This attitude is as common to some Christians as it is to some liberals who think they have the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. It's most common expression is I am saved and you are condemned, the Bible says it's so, hah! (It's hard to capture the smugness.) I certainly respect anyone's right to hold whatever belief they want, and can respect that as their personal belief, stated as such. But when other beliefs are challenged with a comparative, judgmental statement like banan's--"a more hopeful, brighter promise"--it ought to be open to challenge. This is a forum for discussion of those and other topics of politics, religion, and culture. I don't understand why a person's publicly posted opinion cannot be challenged without them trying to turn it into a personal attack. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Photobitstream | Feb 14 2006, 07:36 AM Post #56 |
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Darron - Austin, TX
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The answer is 42. |
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"Their chief weapon, however, was their capacity to astonish. Nobody else could believe, until it was much too late, just how heartless and greedy they actually were." Kurt Vonnegut, Breakfast of Champions | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 14 2006, 08:37 AM Post #57 |
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My original post:
You left out that part of the quote which means much... FOR THE FAITHFUL. Ask the faithful what they believe. What the "faithful" are taught from scripture (if they are believers) is in an afterlife promise from God which for them is a hopeful, brighter promise for the future.... moreso than what might be in the present. It's a belief. I never said the thought of afterlife does or doesn't give a brighter promise for everyone....for the atheist, the non-believer. That was covered in my next sentence. They believe what they want...(on facts, on ones own strengths, whatever....something other than what the "faithful" believes in) which is an opinion/belief/judgement on their part. It's their belief. Why does either have to be considered condescending just because a belief/opinion on afterlife and its "promise" is different? Maybe, upon occasion, you build in meanings (in your mind) to other peoples posts that aren't there. And from that you occasionally use strong words such as "elitest" to describe how you think someone else is saying something (which is a judgement, right or wrong). And that's okay. It's your opinion/belief/judgement. But, it can elicit a response that differs in opinion from yours with some pointing toward "judgements" you make of others. Who said, "judge not that you be judged?" Who ever, It probably applies to both of us. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 14 2006, 08:52 AM Post #58 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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"I never said the thought of afterlife does or doesn't give a brighter promise for everyone....for the atheist, the non-believer." You said, and I quote again, "a more hopeful, brighter promise". It was obvious that was for the "faithful." And just as obvious it was opposed to an undefined "unfaithful". You did not say your belief and others' are different. You made a value judgment setting your beliefs above other's. That is what I challenged and continue to do so, and what you continue to side-step by continuously trying to make it a personal issue ("you build", "your mind", "you think", "your opinion/belief/judgement"). Again, I reject your attempts at trying to make this a personal issue between just you and me, and I ask, again, how is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise"? What, if you know, makes you think so? What is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise" than? What, if you know, are you comparing to? Substantiate your value judgment or leave it relativistic and elitist. On edit, I also note that you continue to say I have judged your beliefs and ignore my request for you to point out where I did that. Will you? Can you? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 15 2006, 08:04 AM Post #59 |
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My attempts to make it personal?????? Your the one that pointed out the "mystical" as being possibly being addressed toward you (slight bit of paranoia there perhaps) when others (besides Stoney) have used the word to simply portray its meaning. It's not a bad word.
See Chris, I consider that a BS statement. It is your value judgement that I set my beliefs above that of others. Should you be doing that? I value my beliefs, why shouln't I; but I'm not putting them above others. Others should believe what they want. I've written that many times. Next time to avoid being personal and making value judgements, I'll try to indicate that all peoples beliefs are the same and equal so as not to make it seem personal to anyone. You on the other hand should feel free to commet and make your judgements as you please, then there will be peace and happiness, not to mention a brighter futrure for all here on "soapbox." |
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| cmoehle | Feb 15 2006, 08:26 AM Post #60 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Banan "Your the one that pointed out the "mystical" as being possibly being addressed toward you..." Oh? Here's what I said: "Also, if you are referring to my use of mystical, it was one of life's little mysteries I was speaking of, not the afterlife's. " Hypothetical followed not by personal reaction but correction of your juxtaposing it with afterlife instead of life. So where do you pull this paranoid stuff out of, Banan? "It is your value judgement that I set my beliefs above that of others." Uh, Banan, I quoted your judgmentally comparative words: "a more hopeful, brighter promise". No interpretation needed. All I've done is ask you why you think your beliefs are better, in those specific terms, than others', and what you think those others' beliefs are that you put yours above, in those specific terms, "a more hopeful, brighter promise". Do note here, please, Banan, to your challenge I am being judmental I do not get all defensive and skirt the issue but address it head on and substantiate why I say what I say. Rather than circle back and repeatedly pose your challenge, you might try to respond to what I've now again pointed out. That way discussion can advance. As for value judgment in general, "Should you be doing that?" I don't see why not. That's what people do. "It's not a bad word." And when people do that, especially on a public forum, they are opening themselves up to criticism and challenges of their opinions. It seems to be you who doesn't appreciate that. "I'll try to indicate that all peoples beliefs are the same and equal so as not to make it seem personal to anyone." Still confused. I did not take your judgmental statement personally. I took it as an opinion, and asked questions about it. I still feel nor see anything personal here, despite your trying to make it so in order to side-step any sort of answer. Let's try this again. Set aside your defensive reaction, just look at what you said, and look at my questions, and try to respond. Banan says: "even though (afterlife) is claimed "mystical" by some PRT, it remains a more hopeful, brighter promise for the future for the "faithful."" Chris asks: "how is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise"? What, if you know, makes you think so? What is your belief "a more hopeful, brighter promise" than? What, if you know, are you comparing to?" Banan replies.... |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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