Two War Dodgers To Be Sent Back To Us

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Two War Dodgers To Be Sent Back To Us; What is our responsibility?
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 8 2006, 03:41 PM (964 Views)
BuddyIAm	Feb 9 2006, 08:03 PM Post #46
Member Posts: 3,214 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: September 27, 2004	Pent The Catholic Church has called the war unjust.. They didn't call Bush a murderous dictator.. The question before the Appeals court is NOT about the trooper…… But the question before the Canadian court is as to whether the immigration panel should have taken into evidence the facts concerning the legality of the War in Iraq… (the immigration panel refused to hear such evidence) An example of a just war would be Americas self defence during ww2
	"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin


cmoehle	Feb 9 2006, 08:13 PM Post #47
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	OK, just one question. What's the connection between Just War Theory and "the legality of the War in Iraq"? Both have to do with justice? But that is ambiguous between what's moral and what's legal.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Stoney	Feb 9 2006, 08:36 PM Post #48
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	cmoehle Feb 9 2006, 08:21 PM No, I found your statement interesting, re "rule of law. Citizens can not be allowed to make individual choices any more than they can about taxes. I think my taxes are unjust. But I don't have any right not to pay them." and commented on it. I would agree, generally, with that statement in a military context. But not in a civilian context. Certainly changing the law is preferable, but there are times civil disobedience is appropriate. Perhaps our definitions of rule of law differ, as I see it as a constraint on government rather than people, important to us so we the people know what to expect of our government. I'm as guilty as the next of going off topic. I find it natural, normal, in conversation. We pursue our interests. The problem with civil disobediance is the same problem we have with defining a "just war." Who defines when it is "appropriate." We have the freedom to disoby. We are responsible for the consequences. If we are deemed right, then we will be rewarded. If we live in a society like ours where the people are free to choose what is good and bad, we have some obligation to go with the flow. I could use some arguments to defend that statement, but they are only words. Yes, the Constitution was constructed to curb government. But it alows the people's representatives to construct "laws" for the populous. I differentiate between the legislature and the Constitution, as you do.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


pentax	Feb 9 2006, 08:39 PM Post #49
Kamloops - BC Interior Posts: 6,649 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: June 21, 2004	BuddyIAm Feb 9 2006, 06:03 PM Pent The Catholic Church has called the war unjust.. They didn't call Bush a murderous dictator.. No, you did - as near as I can make out from your cryptics, anyway.
	(thumbnail) "Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"


Stoney	Feb 9 2006, 08:45 PM Post #50
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	cruiser Feb 9 2006, 08:30 PM Stoney, you have a heart for those who chose to flee to another country. Prison time is just a punitive reaction from those in our administration who did not even serve. A dishonorable discharge is the most severe punishment a decent young man can have hanging over his head for the rest of his life. It is almost like a life sentence in prison. That was not true when I was responsible for giving less than honorable discharges during the late 60's. Some convert automatically after a period of time while others are often converted through appeals. It used to depend on how they were written. It wouldn't be my intention to do much more than let them and others know it was the wrong thing to do.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


BuddyIAm	Feb 9 2006, 08:57 PM Post #51
Member Posts: 3,214 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: September 27, 2004	Pent The Question asked of the Canadian Appeals court. Is not what I think.. But rather. If the Immigration board should have heard argument relevant to whether or not Iraq was a just war… The just war theory is recognized around the world.. Not just by the Catholic Church… I think it is important for all to know what decisions the Court will have to make.. THE JUDGE HAS NOT BEEN ASKED AS TO WHETHER THE TROOPER SHOULD BE RETURNED TO AMERICA… Stoney I now what you are saying, is true about less than honorable discharges, in general.. But my faded memory doesn’t remember the same being true for a dishonorable discharge..
	"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin


Stoney	Feb 9 2006, 09:02 PM Post #52
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	Buddy Quote: Stoney I now what you are saying, is true about less than honorable discharges, in general.. But my faded memory doesn’t remember the same being true for a dishonorable discharge.. Well, that's been a few years ago. As I told cruiser, it would not be my intent to do much more than let them and others know that what they did was wrong.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


ImaHeadaU	Feb 9 2006, 09:18 PM Post #53
Vancouver, B.C., Canada Posts: 353 Group: Members Member #50 Joined: July 17, 2004	Canada has accepted as refugees soldiers from other countries that had fought illegal wars. If his lawyer can show that this war in Iraq is illegal, the precedent suggests that the soldier should be granted refugee status.
	ImaHeadaU Vancouver, B.C., Canada


campingken	Feb 9 2006, 10:26 PM Post #54
Member Posts: 1,332 Group: Members Member #56 Joined: July 18, 2004	These 2 guys don't matter. Bush says we are winning in Iraq and the sons of the neo-cons are storming the doors of the military recruiters. I lived in Placer County California when a guy named Kubby was convicted of using medical marijuana and sentenced to jail. He said that serving time would kill him as he needed to smoke the devil weed to control his cancer. He fled to Canada and I now see that the Canadians sent him back to Placer County to serve out his jail time. Canada is becoming like the USA. Time will tell if this is good for Canadians or not. Ken



Stoney	Feb 10 2006, 05:20 AM Post #55
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	I don't know how we make this work by individually choosing which laws we obey and which we don't. I also don't think Canada generally has a desire to be a haven for those who choose not to obey the law. You can complain about leaders not sending their children to war all you want. It will get some play by some. The fact is that we have an all volunteer military. I like it that way. And I think when that does not produce the necessary people to fulfill whatever mission our representatives have given them in our name, that we deserve whatever consequences come from that.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


campingken	Feb 10 2006, 12:56 PM Post #56
Member Posts: 1,332 Group: Members Member #56 Joined: July 18, 2004	Stoney, It doesn't bother you that those who talk the toughest and make the most money from this "war" have no personal involvement or risk? Sending other peoples kids is like spending other peoples money...easy to do. Personally I believe that if we ever have a military takeover it will be by a professional army. Look around the world that is what happened in nations with military dictators. Currently we are getting close to hiring mercenaries rather than soldiers. The enlistment bonus was increased to a max of $40,000. Also I believe the reason Bush wants to cut the student loan programs is to force young people from middle class down families to enlist to pay for school. Student loans do not in any way impact the children of the wealthy. Bush apparently has no problem not obeying the FISA law. Why should it different if a couplke of E-3's break a law? Ken



pentax	Feb 10 2006, 02:02 PM Post #57
Kamloops - BC Interior Posts: 6,649 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: June 21, 2004	BuddyIAm Feb 9 2006, 06:57 PM The just war theory is recognized around the world.. Not just by the Catholic Church… I think it is important for all to know what decisions the Court will have to make.. THE JUDGE HAS NOT BEEN ASKED AS TO WHETHER THE TROOPER SHOULD BE RETURNED TO AMERICA… a) Whether the war is "just" or not is not germane to the question of should they remain in Canada or not; whether they are to be returned, or not, is. If they would be shown no legal representation in their country, whether they would receive "cruel and unusual" punishment, if they would be persecuted in a manner that vastly differs from our norms - these are the questions. And in my opinion the United States of America, for all the fault-finding one may attempt to the contrary, passes with little difficulty. b) The notion of a "just" war is niave at the least, fooling one's conscience is more like it. It is all in History's hindsight; if things had gone differently a couple generations ago, we would all have been raised studying those "Madmen", Churchill and Roosevelt. Wouldn't have changed the deaths, or the loss of human value those deaths caused.
	(thumbnail) "Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"


feddoc	Feb 10 2006, 03:27 PM Post #58
Member Posts: 371 Group: Members Member #38 Joined: July 9, 2004	campingken Feb 10 2006, 06:56 PM Stoney, It doesn't bother you that those who talk the toughest and make the most money from this "war" have no personal involvement or risk? Sending other peoples kids is like spending other peoples money...easy to do. Personally I believe that if we ever have a military takeover it will be by a professional army. Look around the world that is what happened in nations with military dictators. Currently we are getting close to hiring mercenaries rather than soldiers. The enlistment bonus was increased to a max of $40,000. Also I believe the reason Bush wants to cut the student loan programs is to force young people from middle class down families to enlist to pay for school. Student loans do not in any way impact the children of the wealthy. Bush apparently has no problem not obeying the FISA law. Why should it different if a couplke of E-3's break a law? Ken What enlistment bonus went to 40K? Ken, This (the deserters) shouldn't be about President Bush. It should be about the two soldiers who had to take the place of the two who deserted. It should be about keeping discipline and justice with the military consitent with the crimes, not about political feelings.



ImaHeadaU	Feb 10 2006, 03:52 PM Post #59
Vancouver, B.C., Canada Posts: 353 Group: Members Member #50 Joined: July 17, 2004	Stoney Feb 10 2006, 03:20 AM I don't know how we make this work by individually choosing which laws we obey and which we don't. All soldiers have the right to refuse an illegal order. If the war is illegal, refusing to ship there would be the right and proper thing to do.
	ImaHeadaU Vancouver, B.C., Canada


campingken	Feb 10 2006, 04:23 PM Post #60
Member Posts: 1,332 Group: Members Member #56 Joined: July 18, 2004	Feddoc, I actually agree with you that the soldiers should have to answer for their choice. However I would like to see a more level playing field between the powerful and the rest of us. (heck I can dream). Currently if you pick a combat MOS the Army is offering up to a $40,000 enlistment bonus on top of the Army College fund. Some of the special op guys are getting $150,000 tax free to stay in the service. It is hard to compete with Blackwater Security etc when they are paying $1000 - $1500 a day tax free in Iraq to former special op troops. Also I think that what Canada decides is their choice and we should not influence them one way or another. Ken


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