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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 8 2006, 12:36 PM (493 Views) | |
| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 10:08 AM Post #31 |
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Chris says: Subject is simply revenue. Buddy says: I DID NOT GIVE YOU A SINGLE SURPLUS OR DEFICIET FIGURE!!!! I gave you the revenues collected from 2000 to 2005 in 2005 dollars… I did also give you the revenue lost do to the tax cuts compared to revenue collected in 2000 using 2005 dollars.. Ignore that if you wish.. I gave you the figures.. From 1962 to the present.. There has ALWAYS been a decrease in revenue collected after a tax cut…. We have talked about Kennedy’s tax cuts before .. At the time of his term TAX RATES WERE AS HIGH AS 90%.. And there was a deduction for every imaginable thing possible.. Much of Kennedy’s TAX RATE cuts did not result in any decrease in taxes owed. BECAUSE THE RATE DECREASE, WAS OFFSET BY THE ELIMINATION OF A DEDUCTION.. Still, the decrease in revenue experienced in a time of need…. A time when there should actually have been tax increases… (WAR) resulted in a 10% war tax surcharge in 1968... As far as Reagan.. Look at the CBO figures I gave you.. Your statement is just absolutely wrong.. In 2005 dollars. Prior to Reagan’s tax cuts. Revenues were increasing at a rate of 75 billion dollars a year. As a direct result of Reagan’s tax cuts.. Revenues immediately fell by 16 billion dollars the first year. And only after 5 years did revenue return to increasing 75 billion dollars a year… The same old tired argument is brought up over and over.. An argument that fails to recognize that outside of a pandemic. Revenues will always go up because of inflation and population growth. And for the same reason.. Expenditures will always go up.. Are there good reasons for a tax cut. Yes.. The reasons I stated above will at some point in time. Absent a pandemic etc. Cause revenues to greatly exceed expenditures. Simply because the spreading of cost through out a larger population.. But giving away money is never a good way to increase revenue.. And if you want to grow the economy.. Spend the money you have wisely on infrastructure. Not in hand outs to the wealthy… Stop listening to trickle down economists. READ THE FACTS…. |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 01:14 PM Post #32 |
Chris - San Antonio TX
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The facts were presented. For Kennedy and for Reagan, following tax cuts, revenues rose. Twist and turn it anyway you want, your claim was wrong. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 01:49 PM Post #33 |
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Chris.. I have no idea why you are having so much trouble reading the charts.. From 1982 to 1983 The revenue FELL BY 18 BILLION DOLLARS.. Up to that point the Revenue was increasing by 75 billion dollars a year.. Only after 5 years of shock recovery from the tax cuts, And a Almost quadrupling the illegal alien population.. Did the Tax revenue RETURN to the status Quo of 75 billion dollar/ tax revenue increases.. As far as Kennedy.. You lived during that time.. I hope you read the papers.. Stop listening to the revisionists.. 1. The work force had started to be flooded by millions of baby boomers. And tax revenues were increasing at a alarming rate.. 2. The number of deductions was ridiculous and it was becoming impossible to control.. KENNEDY NEVER PROPOSED A TAX CUT TO THE WEALTHY TO IMPROVE THE ECONOMY…. Only to bring revenues to a respectable level and to reform what had become a unmanageable system of deductions… And in fact.. The rate of increase in revenues fell by 33% between 1964 and 1965. Compared to 1963 and 1964 In other words.. He passed a tax reform accompanied by offsets….. A strategy I have always supported.. A Strategy I have always said was necessary. A strategy endorsed by Alan Greenspan… What Kennedy failed to do.. Just as Bush has today. Is invasion a decades long war.. Even with millions of new baby boomers entering the work force every year.. Revenues could not keep up with expenditures.. The public debt began growing at such a alarming rate. Johnson hade to pass a 10% war tax surchage in 1968.. This is why you see the 28 billion dollar increase in revenue during 1969.. Look at the percentage of increase for the Johnson years.. Because of tax increases and a huge boom in the workforce.. A 66% increase in revenue. Accompanied by only a 18% inflation.. This link has the actual chart.. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-taxgrowth.htmLINK President Years # Prev yr Last yr Increase Inflation Adjusted Revenue Revenue average Roosevelt 34-46 13 $ 2.0 $ 39.3 1865.0% 50.8% 121.3% Truman 47-53 7 39.3 69.6 77.1% 36.9% 3.7% Eisenhower 54-61 8 69.6 94.4 35.6% 11.9% 2.4% Kennedy 62-64 3 94.4 112.6 19.3% 3.7% 4.8% L Johnson 65-69 5 112.6 186.9 66.0% 18.4% 6.9% Nixon 70-75 6 186.9 279.1 49.3% 46.6% 0.3% Ford 76-77 2 279.1 355.6 27.4% 12.6% 6.4% Carter 78-81 4 355.6 599.3 68.5% 50.0% 3.0% Reagan 82-89 8 599.3 990.7 65.3% 36.4% 2.4% Bush 90-93 4 990.7 1153.5 16.4% 16.5% -0.0% |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| silverfox | Feb 9 2006, 01:51 PM Post #34 |
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The Regan years of Tax cuts and Congressional spending are show below. More government revenues were collected in 1988 than in any other administration—in percentage terms, the government took in 76 percent more that year than it had ever collected in any year of any other administration. The idea that tax cuts –for the rich or otherwise—were responsible for the deficit flies in the face of these easily obtainable statistics. Spending increases simply outstripped the rising volume of tax receipts. The same thing is happening today. Year Receipts Outlays Deficit (billions) 1981 $599 $678 $79 1982 618 746 128 1983 601 808 208 1984 666 851 185 1985 734 946 212 1986 769 990 212 1987 854 1004 149 1988 909 1064 155 |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 02:00 PM Post #35 |
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Silver said in percentage terms, the government took in 76 percent more that year than it had ever collected in any year of any other administration. Buddy says: Soooooo, that only speaks for inflation and population growth… Revenue grew by 50% during the Carter years. 67% During Johnson’s years and only 37% during the Reagan years with 0 growth during Bush SR. years This is the correct way to judge revenue growth. And is a complete denunciation of any claim that Tax cuts create more revenue… This link has the actual chart.. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-taxgrowth.htmLINK President Years # Prev yr Last yr Increase Inflation Adjusted Revenue Revenue average Roosevelt 34-46 13 $ 2.0 $ 39.3 1865.0% 50.8% 121.3% Truman 47-53 7 39.3 69.6 77.1% 36.9% 3.7% Eisenhower 54-61 8 69.6 94.4 35.6% 11.9% 2.4% Kennedy 62-64 3 94.4 112.6 19.3% 3.7% 4.8% L Johnson 65-69 5 112.6 186.9 66.0% 18.4% 6.9% Nixon 70-75 6 186.9 279.1 49.3% 46.6% 0.3% Ford 76-77 2 279.1 355.6 27.4% 12.6% 6.4% Carter 78-81 4 355.6 599.3 68.5% 50.0% 3.0% Reagan 82-89 8 599.3 990.7 65.3% 36.4% 2.4% Bush 90-93 4 990.7 1153.5 16.4% 16.5% -0.0% |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 02:31 PM Post #36 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Buddy, these other facts are interesting, certainly, no one would argue that other factors do not enter into the picture, like spending, baby booms, natural rise and fall of economy, but the fact remains, tax cuts can indirectly result in revenue increases. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 02:36 PM Post #37 |
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The history, represented by the numbers.. Facts. Show that to be untrue... Simple as that... |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 02:45 PM Post #38 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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What I posted earlier is true:
What silverwinger posted is true:
You've done nothing to dispell that, simply smoked and mirrored it with other matters. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 03:12 PM Post #39 |
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Regan did not double revenues through tax cuts.. He increased revenues by 29% over inflation.. For an average of 2.4% per year.. When considering the population growth. This would be a loss of revenues compared to an economy with out the Reagan Tax cuts.. Johnson increased revenues by 48% for an average of 6.9% Carter increased revenue by 18.4% for an average of 3% Nixon and Bush Sr. are the only presidents that had a lower average revenue growth than Reagan… |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 04:28 PM Post #40 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Buddy "Regan did not double revenues through tax cuts.. He increased revenues by 29% over inflation.." Good enough. But you had said this NEVER happens. The hypothetical, "This would be a loss of revenues", is interesting to speculate about. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 05:32 PM Post #41 |
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Chris Says: Good enough. But you had said this NEVER happens. Buddy says: I said that Tax cuts ALWAYS result in a reduction in revenues. And they do.. Sure eventually through population growth etc. Revenues eventually come back.. But they lag behind revenues that would have been gained without the tax cut and never regain revenue lost… Your trying to argue that draining the pond increases pond water collection.. 1st you drain the pond.. 2nd it rains and in ten years the pond is full.. 3rd then you argue seee.. Before the pond wasn’t full. Today the pond is full. We increased water flow by draining the pond… Buddy says The pond was full in the first place.. Draining did not increase the water flow into the pond.. Left untouched. The pond would have been overflowing the year you drained it.. But draining the pond left it lacking in water for ten years until it refilled… (debt) You keep on ignoring the historical fact.. That left untouched Revenue always grows at a greater rate than inflation.. The increase in the work force, the next greatest influence on the revenue collection.. What happened to Bush and Kennedy. Was that a drought hit (WAR) the day after they drained the pond.. Johnson recognized the drought. And passed the 10% war tax.. Bush is overwhelmed by trickle down economist working for the Bow Tie class. And has no idea what he is doing or to proud to admit he was wrong… Trickle down does not work.. |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 05:36 PM Post #42 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Do you read what you post? Buddy now "I said that Tax cuts ALWAYS result in a reduction in revenues." Buddy earlier "Regan did not double revenues through tax cuts.. He increased revenues by 29% over inflation.." |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 06:24 PM Post #43 |
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Well I hope my poor wordsmanship didn’t confuse you.. But there was initially a huge reduction in revenue. This is what always happens.. My intent was to express that revenue went up 29% during Reagan’s term.. And average of 2.4%/ year.. A reduction in the average growth of revenues from the From the Carter years when they had a average growth in revenue of 3%/year. That is the second thing that always happens.. Also the rate of revenue increase during the Reagan terms was less than the rate of increase during all but Bush Sr. and Nixon’s terms.. Those are the facts. I gave the numbers in the CBO report.. Stop draining the pond to make yourself look good IF IT RAINS THE NEXT DAY.. Sometimes it doesn’t rain…. |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 9 2006, 06:33 PM Post #44 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Hey, I made a simple statement about tax cuts and revenues, you jumped all over it. I just defended what I know can be true, and acknowledge a lot of other factors are involved. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| BuddyIAm | Feb 9 2006, 06:39 PM Post #45 |
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Chris says: I just defended what I know can be true, Buddy says:: Then do what you asked of me.. Show me the numbers.. Show me the history.. Give me the proof… |
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"The truth lies in a man's dreams... perhaps in this unhappy world of ours whose madness is better than a foolish sanity." "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Regan "Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" --Josef Stalin | |
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