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General Ullyses S. Grant; Now Apparently A Hijacked CivilWar Topic
Topic Started: 16 Dec 2007, 10:40 PM (425 Views)
Astro_Death
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Found out a little fact of history about Grant.Apparently in 1862,he gave General Order 11.It ordered that all Jews in Tennessee,Mississippi,and Kentucky were to be expelled...Ordered because he said there was a black market in Southern cotton and he was convinced it was ran by mostly Jews -_- :angry:
"Nothing in democracy is perfect." - Oscar Arias
"I cant stand idly by while poor people get free food! We gotta sell these things!" - Bender
"Finally, we'll have something more reliable than a government document!" - Stephen Colbert
"Justice may fail in one's lifetime, but it will eventually win in the cours"e of history." - Kim Dae-jung
"Trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it." - Barney Frank
"Nobody knows we're here... so...let's wreck the joint!" - Tommy Tiernan, on the Universe
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KamikazeCow
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And here I was thinking he was almost like good ole Abe.

The above was sarcasm.
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Astro_Death
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Wasn't the only type of order he gave too <_<

"Nothing in democracy is perfect." - Oscar Arias
"I cant stand idly by while poor people get free food! We gotta sell these things!" - Bender
"Finally, we'll have something more reliable than a government document!" - Stephen Colbert
"Justice may fail in one's lifetime, but it will eventually win in the cours"e of history." - Kim Dae-jung
"Trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it." - Barney Frank
"Nobody knows we're here... so...let's wreck the joint!" - Tommy Tiernan, on the Universe
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KamikazeCow
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Probably not.
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Alkeni Synair
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He saved the Fragging Union. Give him a break. At least HE, unlike some anti-semites (read: Conservative Christians) did some good.
Work in progress.
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Michael Irick
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I agree that he is better than some (read: Sherman/Sheridan), he still waged offensive war on civilians. He held the siege at Vicksburg, which was a town fortified because of the threat of Yankee gunboats. In Vicksburg, people starved and there are reports of cannibalism due to the extreme lack of food. He "saved" a Union that didn't need saving. The Union would've lasted without those States. I am gonna restrain myself from further comment on the War.
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Alkeni Synair
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michaelirick
Dec 28 2007, 12:17 AM
I agree that he is better than some (read: Sherman/Sheridan), he still waged offensive war on civilians. He held the siege at Vicksburg, which was a town fortified because of the threat of Yankee gunboats. In Vicksburg, people starved and there are reports of cannibalism due to the extreme lack of food. He "saved" a Union that didn't need saving. The Union would've lasted without those States. I am gonna restrain myself from further comment on the War.

I'm not going to restrian myself.

A.) If the south secceded sucsessfully, the precedent would be set and soon we'd have 9 competing nations in the North Ameican Continent North of the Rio Grande.

B.) Sherman is WAY Better than Grant

C.) War always effects the civilians, fact of life, deal with it.

D.) Vicksburg deserved it.

Work in progress.
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Michael Irick
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Of course War affects civilians, that's one of the horrors of war. That's why all wars are horrible.

Sherman was the worst. He gave the order to burn down entire cities and did burn a lot of land in Tennessee, Georgia, and South Carolina. He even ordered women to be raped, "Make the Southern women howl!"

Would there be anything wrong with nine competing nations? Competition is good, especially in the economy. If liberty is the precedent then there is no problem.
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Alkeni Synair
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michaelirick
Dec 28 2007, 02:23 AM
Of course War affects civilians, that's one of the horrors of war. That's why all wars are horrible.

Sherman was the worst. He gave the order to burn down entire cities and did burn a lot of land in Tennessee, Georgia, and South Carolina. He even ordered women to be raped, "Make the Southern women howl!"

Would there be anything wrong with nine competing nations? Competition is good, especially in the economy. If liberty is the precedent then there is no problem.

A.) No, the preccedent is that anyone could secede for any reason, whenever the hell they felt like it.

B.) No, Sherman ended the war, that is why he's better. If say, Lee had pulled a Sherman's March somehow, would you still be idolizing him? Yes you would, Southern Bastard.

C.) Economic Principles of Competition cannot apply to international politics. I'd say, within a hundred years, all nine would nuclear waste, if we divided now.
Work in progress.
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Kai
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If the CSA remained a separate country read Harry Turtledove who writes about just that in a fairly realistic way.
wat?
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Alkeni Synair
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Kai
Dec 28 2007, 12:27 PM
If the CSA remained a separate country read Harry Turtledove who writes about just that in a fairly realistic way.

good point. Another argument for not allowing secession.

I WIN!
Work in progress.
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Michael Irick
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Okay, let's start with the Lee going Sherman. I would not idolize him. I don't idolize him, now. He was a straight forward commander who knew what he was doing and did so as a gentleman follow the rules of warfare as taught at West Point prior to the 1840s.

Yes, Sherman did end the war, but there was a much easier way that would end a lot of bloodshed. The Federal Government could have done as Buchanan was doing. Buchanan believed that the States did not have the right to secede, but he said that the federal government did not have the power to stop them. Would peace really be that bad?

The precedent that anyone can secede whenever they feel like it actually does appeal to me. The Declaration of Independence states that it is the right of the people to alter or abolish their government when it does not meet the reason it was established.

Why would all nine be nuclear waste? Provide they had nuclear weapons, the deterrence factor would be too great, and the proximity of the nations to each other would also play a part. Then you have the unpopularity of using a nuclear weapon, if the government survived any retaliation, then the people would be very unhappy.

And please don't use speculative fiction as an argument. I have read Turtledove's books, and I do like them. He has done a lot of research, but he assumes the Confederacy would be like the U.S. after the war. He also overlooked the demand of the Confederate Congress: normalization of relations, return of trade and peace, and cooperation.
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KamikazeCow
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Alexander Hamilton
Dec 27 2007, 10:25 AM
He saved the Fragging Union. Give him a break. At least HE, unlike some anti-semites (read: Conservative Christians) did some good.

That there's another reason I regard him as an inferior.

Mind you, I don't like the Confederates, but. :P For the sake of the argument.
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Alkeni Synair
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michaelirick
Dec 28 2007, 03:13 PM
Okay, let's start with the Lee going Sherman. I would not idolize him. I don't idolize him, now. He was a straight forward commander who knew what he was doing and did so as a gentleman follow the rules of warfare as taught at West Point prior to the 1840s.

Yes, Sherman did end the war, but there was a much easier way that would end a lot of bloodshed. The Federal Government could have done as Buchanan was doing. Buchanan believed that the States did not have the right to secede, but he said that the federal government did not have the power to stop them. Would peace really be that bad?

The precedent that anyone can secede whenever they feel like it actually does appeal to me. The Declaration of Independence states that it is the right of the people to alter or abolish their government when it does not meet the reason it was established.

Why would all nine be nuclear waste? Provide they had nuclear weapons, the deterrence factor would be too great, and the proximity of the nations to each other would also play a part. Then you have the unpopularity of using a nuclear weapon, if the government survived any retaliation, then the people would be very unhappy.

And please don't use speculative fiction as an argument. I have read Turtledove's books, and I do like them. He has done a lot of research, but he assumes the Confederacy would be like the U.S. after the war. He also overlooked the demand of the Confederate Congress: normalization of relations, return of trade and peace, and cooperation.

A.) Yes, any weakening of the United States would have left us open to foreign conquest of the Americas.
B.) Saying Buchanan had a good idea? Whats the point of making something against the law, if you can't punish someone for doing it? Buchanan was worse than Jefferson, and Thats Saying quite a bit.
C.) Yes, because regional hatreds wouldn't have disapeared with Integretion, people would be angry enough to use nukes on their enemies. At the begining, people knew NOTHING about radiation.
D.) True about the DoI, but the majority of the US decided that they didn't want slavery to grow. Democratic Principles involve going along with what the majority wants, rule by the people, not by a bunch of aristocrats, which like it or not, the south was.
Work in progress.
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KamikazeCow
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michaelirick
Dec 28 2007, 02:13 PM
The precedent that anyone can secede whenever they feel like it actually does appeal to me.

Dude...we're like...the Secession Fan Club...members deuce. :P Unless you count Astro_Death. :D C'mon A_D, we have pina coladas!
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