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Tantalizing Tut Tomb Theory
Topic Started: Aug 12 2015, 03:08 PM (2,124 Views)
Todd Feinman
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http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-ar...at-lies-beneath

That would be AWESOME. :drool:
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Dan Howard
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Let's hope that the tomb is well guarded because if they are not, those rooms won't be hidden for long.
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Todd Feinman
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Dan Howard,Aug 12 2015
10:44 PM
Let's hope that the tomb is well guarded because if they are not, those rooms won't be hidden for long.

Good point. Gads that would be terrible.. Regular old looters and now moronic religious fanatics! Gimme the snake-headed demons of the Duat instead! At least the spells work on them.
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Matthew Amt
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I think I may be the only skeptic, on this one! It sounds like all we really have is some *possible* irregularities in the plaster. Seen on a photograph, not actually examined on the wall itself.

From there to Nefertiti is but the tiniest step! Um...

Granted, the bit about Tut's tomb being too small, and fitting the general plan of an antechamber, is intriguing. *I* would have started with radar and sonar scans, and gone from there.

The other problem is that Nefertiti seems to have been "assigned" as Tut's mother by modern politics, while the historical information is not that firm.

This could be as big a circus as the Amphipolis tomb. Though at least there they started by actually *finding* a tomb...

But I promise to be thrilled when more rooms full of gold are opened!

Matthew
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Matthew Amt
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I downloaded the original article and plan to read it, but started by going through the pretty pictures! And I'm a little happier with the concept in general. Apparently people haven't been happy with the layout of Tut's tomb since it was first found! It seems to show a couple phases of development, all of which would better match everything else if those additional rooms were actually there. And better yet as a *queen's* tomb.

I will say this: Apparently a measurable fraction of the gold that has been mined through human history has been found in Egyptian tombs. And of course Tut's is the bulk of that. If he only got the *leftovers*...

Get digging, kids!

Matthew
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Todd Feinman
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I agree, it really only is an interesting theory until some tests are done. The ancient Egyptians are full of surprises though, and sometimes an unassuming doorway or cracking plaster does lead to rooms filled with treasure (or once filled with it). Aftter the reign of Akhenaten and the destruction of Akhetaten and the return to the traditional Egyptian pantheon, I could see Nefertiti (perhaps a co-ruler), being locked away in such a golden closet near Tut. The Egyptians wanted to forget the final rulers of that dynasty. Akhenaten's and Nefertiti's tomb may even have been desecrated and destroyed and the treasure seized and held and then entombed with / near Tut when he died..

I've always thought it neat that I could go get a gold ring and it might have part of the gold cult statue of Horus in it or something :-) i've heard estimates about the total amount of gold mined by humans, but I am really not certain how accurate the numbers are.
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Brock H
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Intriguing and I hope it's true, but I'm going to be on the skeptical side. Let's remember Tut was a minor pharaoh who didn't reign for very long. It wouldn't be at all surprising if besides secondhand grave goods he was stuck in whatever tomb was handy, perhaps one originally intended for a queen or princess that for whatever reason had remained unused until his death.

While Tut did return the old Egyptian gods to their places, no doubt under pressure, he was still the son of Akhenaten. The priests would probably have wanted the last member of that dynasty out of sight and mind as quickly as possible. And Ay would have also wanted him gone quickly. So as soon as he was mummified stick him in whatever tomb is handy.
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Dan Howard
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I'm one of the most skeptial and cynical people you'll ever meet and have no opinion at all on the whether this idea has merit or not. I only wondered at the wisdom of publishing this idea for the world to see when there is minimal security protecting the tomb. Even if the rooms don't exist we don't want grave robbers destroying the site in an attempt to find out.
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Matthew Amt
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Guess I've gotten pretty cynical in my old age, especially about countries like that. If Egypt really wants to preserve their precious heritage, they will. Otherwise, tough luck for everyone.

No, I'm just wide-eyed that any scholar would pretty much stand up and say, "I'VE DISCOVERED NEFERTITI'S TOMB", when what he has are some marks on the wall and a (not unreasonable) idea of how a tomb should be shaped. I mean, come on...

Matthew
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Matthew Amt,Aug 14 2015
12:57 AM
No, I'm just wide-eyed that any scholar would pretty much stand up and say, "I'VE DISCOVERED NEFERTITI'S TOMB", when what he has are some marks on the wall and a (not unreasonable) idea of how a tomb should be shaped.  I mean, come on...

Did you follow the dig at Amphipolis at all, last year? Virtually before they even began the excavation there were published theories about the tomb perhaps being that of Alexander himself! Barring that, they at least projected that it was unlooted and would contain a wondrous amount of artifacts within... Nearly a year later, there has been little evidence to support any of that conjecture. I was in Greece during the time of the early excavation and actually visited Amphipolis within weeks after the Prime Minister made an appearance there. Such a contrived fiasco created a rushed project and few academic results... I spoke with government archaeologists on the ground who doubted the significance of the site all along, but such professional opinions amounted to nothing against the hopes of the government and the few radical archaeologists who happened to have access to the site.

If Greece isn't past it, I wouldn't be that Egypt is.

-Gregory
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Matthew Amt
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Quote:
 
Did you follow the dig at Amphipolis at all, last year? Virtually before they even began the excavation there were published theories about the tomb perhaps being that of Alexander himself! Barring that, they at least projected that it was unlooted and would contain a wondrous amount of artifacts within... Nearly a year later, there has been little evidence to support any of that conjecture. I was in Greece during the time of the early excavation and actually visited Amphipolis within weeks after the Prime Minister made an appearance there. Such a contrived fiasco created a rushed project and few academic results... I spoke with government archaeologists on the ground who doubted the significance of the site all along, but such professional opinions amounted to nothing against the hopes of the government and the few radical archaeologists who happened to have access to the site.


Oh, gosh, yes! There are several huge and ongoing debates on it (and on several tangents) on the Pothos.org board. It's been an absolute political circus from beginning to end! There is still a hugely vocal faction that is frantic to mangle as much evidence as possible to prove that Olympia is buried there. And now they don't have the money to actual *protect* the exposed tomb, so it's going to flood and collapse. Oh, and they apparently didn't have enough money for someone to be video-recording the whole excavation, which would have pre-empted 90 percent of the raging questions and debates--oh, wait, they DO come up with little video clips now and then, most of which actually raise more questions! Or contradict the official reports.

And just a few weeks ago the whole Vergina debate erupted again. We'll probably never figure out who was really buried in those tombs, but since Greece's political position with the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", and the economy of that area, are based on the man in Tomb II being Philip II, any number of facts will be swept away or shouted down. Even on the academic side, which may or may not care what the government says, every new report by fanatically biased experts is taken as the New Truth. The two main factions are headed by guys who have literally hated each other since they were in school together! No unbiased outside investigations have been allowed. The bones from the 3 tombs have been very poorly treated, mixed up, lost, stashed, badly restored, and hidden for decades.

Why is Greece even allowed to do archeology any more? Egypt just adds terrorism to that mix--they'd be better off just covering everything with sand for another century or two.

Matthew
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Todd Feinman
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Actually had a chance to read that paper last night, and I'm actually quite optimistic about the chances for discovering additional undiscovered storage rooms associated with Tut's tomb, another royal tomb, or even the undisturbed tomb of Nefertiti...
Based on the Egyptian king lists and bits and pieces of burial goods with royal cartouches that are known, there is only a small number of pharaohs' tombs that MIGHT remain undiscovered, and Nefertiti's is one of them. The two previously detected radar anomalies near Tut are interesting; one turned out to have royal embalming equipment --perhaps for a royal in an undiscovered tomb, while the other was not excavated. The anomalies on the walls of Tut's tomb are far more suggestive than I originally thought --no pareidolia there...

Clearly Kent Weeks is making an informed gamble that this is Nefertiti's tomb; it's like Wheel of Fortune and Weeks is going to try and guess the phrase. If he is right, it could be the biggest archaeological discovery of all time, eclipsing Tut completely. If he is wrong, he just gies away with his tail between his legs and loses funding sources.

And wouldn't it be great if Omm Seti was right about the location of Nefertiti's tomb??
:D Ha!

Those Greek tombs? What a mess. Where is Howard Carter when we need him?

;)
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Sean Manning
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Indeed, there have been some disappointments in the past with advanced imaging and ancient Egypt. I remember a theory that the skirts of the guardians in Tut's antechamber were hollow and filed with papyri, and there were some experiments with robots in the ventilation shafts of the Great Pyramid which did not turn up much. But the author is an Egyptian archaeologist (here is his private website) and he opened by publishing an article in a venue which Egyptologists seem to read rather than calling a press conference/getting a book deal with Penguin. So it could be ... even a dead-end passage which had to be bricked up when Tut died would be interesting.

They still have not finished clearing out that big tomb for the sons of Rameses either, although it has been pretty thoroughly cleaned out.
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Todd Feinman
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Sean Manning,Aug 14 2015
03:47 PM
Indeed, there have been some disappointments in the past with advanced imaging and ancient Egypt.  I remember a theory that the skirts of the guardians in Tut's antechamber were hollow and filed with papyri, and there were some experiments with robots in the ventilation shafts of the Great Pyramid which did not turn up much.  But the author is an Egyptian archaeologist (here is his private website) and he opened by publishing an article in a venue which Egyptologists seem to read rather than calling a press conference/getting a book deal with Penguin.  So it could be ... even a dead-end passage which had to be bricked up when Tut died would be interesting.

They still have not finished clearing out that big tomb for the sons of Rameses either, although it has been pretty thoroughly cleaned out.

Yeah, I remember that guardian statue investigation! I think the air shaft investigation kind of petered out due to government / Hawass interference. I actually believe as Hawass does, that the burial chamber and treasures in the Great Pyramid are STILL intact.. I think that they built them into the pyramid as it was being constructed (the secret chambers of legend that Thoth helped to design). The empty sarcophagus in the "burial chamber" is just a cenotaph. Not long ago a French Engineer, Houdin (IIRC), actually worked out how the pyramid was built; they used an internal spiral ramp, and didn't even need help from aliens :-D

Ancient Egyptians: full of surprises and secrets, and bloody BRILLIANT. :P
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Matthew Amt
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Yes, the internal ramps are clearly seen on a gravimetric (?) plot, one of those technothingies that determines density, in the 1980s. But of course they ignored it! One of the corner chambers can be entered through a hole, but it's hard to get permission even to go up and look, much less investigate.

I think it was the same guy who pointed out that the whole idea of building the core and then adding the facing was backwards--the facing stones were put in place first, THEN the core was filled in.

I don't know enough about the hidden burial chamber to argue about that. But definitely agreed on the "brilliant" part!

Matthew
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Sean Manning
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Yes, that "internal ramp" theory is another good example where fancy sensors turned up something interesting, but I never heard of a follow up. I am a bit suspicious, but I do not think poking around or experimenting with other systems to sense through the limestone could hurt. There must be a lot of technology for finding oil, gas, minerals, and enemy bunkers out there ...
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Matthew Amt
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Bunkers are easy--it's called a JDAM... (ahem...)

The thing about all the various ramp or not-ramp theories is that none of them have any physical evidence. Except for the internal ramps! Just do a Google image search on "pyramid internal ramp" and you'll see the images (purple and green). Plus there is the physical hole in the pyramid. Sure, more scanning is called for, if the Egyptians will let anyone do it. We all know how they are about theories that don't match their views...

Which makes me wonder what the official reaction will be to anything about Tut's tomb. "It was thoroughly investigated when it was first found, and there is nothing more to discover!" Wouldn't surprise me.

I suspect the Valley of the Kings already has pretty good security, but I honestly don't know, nor do I know what kind of tourist traffic they get there, or even allow. Plus, even if they pile on the guards, can the guards be trusted? Not bloody likely...

Matthew
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Todd Feinman
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Yeah, I don't know how safe any of the monuments or museums in Egypt really are. I suspect an organized group of terrorists could damage or destroy nearly any monument in Egypt; I think the terrorists at the Luxor massacre were actually dressed as security guards. I worry about the Cairo museum being attacked or even burned; that would be a terrible, sickening disaster. Frankly, I think unless IS (I will NOT call them "ISIS"), is attacked and destroyed with overwhelming force, it's inevitable that something as tragic as the destruction of museums and monuments in Egypt is inevitable. The horrible destruction of antiquities in Iraq by those very morons comes to mind.

Houdin's internal ramp theory looks like it is nicely explained here:

http://emhotep.net/2010/12/02/locations/lo...s-of-a-pyramid/

He is able to explain the Grand Gallery and its puzzling features, too. I think the broken corner of the internal ramp mentioned earlier by Matt --where animals seem to enter and exit the pyramid has been looked at, and though it was partially filledwith stone, there was evidence of a void extending into the pyramid where the ramp was. The Egyptians apparently built the bottom third of the GP with an external ramp.
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Matthew Amt
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Thanks for that link, Todd! I'm familiar with Houdin and have seen at least a video and other stuff by/about him, but I was up til midnight reading this site! Geez, it's like he's the first guy who actually LOOKED at the architecture and engineering that goes into a pyramid. And then he goes out and FINDS the ramps and other features, just wild.

Just to add to the fear side, though, people who hate antiquities are not the only problem. Museum curators are regularly hauling stuff out the back door to the black market. Weird world, eh?

Matthew
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Todd Feinman
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That is a great site, isn't it? There is a lot of high quality stuff about Egypt online. I might try to create a niche site about the ancient Egyptian military at some point --based on your wonderful and useful site, Matt. There's no point in trying to create a general Egypt site; no reason to bescumber the gilded lilly, eh? <_<
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