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One horn or two????
Topic Started: Apr 16 2015, 10:26 AM (1,959 Views)
S. Workman
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George Nicolaides,Apr 20 2015
02:34 PM
Hi Dan,

I guess it's always been assumed that those wearing the so-called 'sea peoples' kilt (bordered and with tassels hanging off the ends) together with the horned and various other helmets were sea peoples (Andrea's site gives a good summary of the helmet types).

As for those figures in horned helmets and egyptian kilts I believe some of them are described as Sherden in temple inscriptions (I'll check up on that)

I'm not sure that the Egyptians were all that concerned with accurately depicting their foreign enemies.
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Todd Feinman
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I think they were interested in depicting stereotypes in propagandistic art --almost the way the Japanese and Germans were smeared in WWII. The "Nine Bows" represented Egypt's chief enemies / barbarians:
http://www.touregypt.net/images/touregypt/enemies7.jpg
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George Nicolaides
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The Sea Peoples kilt can be seen in the land and sea battle depictions at Medinet Habu of Ramese III.
(examples are on Andrea Salimbeti’s site in the Sea Peoples section http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm )
The Medinet Habu inscriptions list the following..
The countries /// ///, the [Northerners (?)] in their isles [11] were disturbed, taken away in the [fray (?)] /// at one time. Not one stood before their hands, from Kheta [1] (xtA), Kode [2] (qdj), Carchemish [3] (qArAqAmSA), Arvad [4] (ArATw), and Alasa [5] (ArAsA), they were wasted. [The]y [set up (?)] a camp in one place in Amor [6]. They desolated his people and his land like that which is not. They came with fire prepared before them, forward to Egypt. Their main support was Peleset (pwrAsAT), Thekel (TAkkArA), Shekelesh (SAkrwSA), Denyen (dAjnjw), and Weshesh (wASASA). (These) lands were united, and they laid their hands upon the land as far as the Circle of the Earth. Their hearts were confident, full of their plans.
Inscription on the second pylon at Medinet Habu
J.H. Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, Part Four, § 64
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/sea_peoples.htm
Even though the Sherden are not specifically mentioned in the above temple inscription, a contemporary written account, The Papyrus Harris mentions them in the wars..
I (Ramses III) extended all the boundaries of Egypt; I overthrew those who invaded them from their lands. I slew the Denen in their isles, the Thekel and the Peleset were made ashes. The Sherden and the Weshesh of the sea, they were made as those that exist not, taken captive at one time, brought as captives to Egypt, like the sand on the shore.
Papyrus Harris
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, Part Four, § 403
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/sea_peoples.htm
and a Sherden chieftain is depicted as one of the prisoners on the Medinet Habu depictions indicating that they were indeed present.
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm.
So at least some of the horned helmeted figures in Sea Peoples kilts must be Sherden.
Sherden also appear at the Battle of Kadesh.
The contemporary Poem of Pentaur confirms their presence…
“Now His Majesty had made ready his infantry and his chariotry, and the Sherden of His Majesty's capturing whom he had brought back by the victory of his strong arm; supplied with all their weapons, and the plan of fighting having been given to them”.
http://www.ancient.eu/article/147/
The depictions of the battle at Abydos highlight the appearance of these particular Sherden.
Anthony Spalinger in his paper “The Battle Of Kadesh: The Chariot Frieze At Abydos” describes their appearance in the various temple panels. In one particular frieze,
“A slight space separates the forward or left facing guardsman from the row of Sherden who are located in front of them (Figs. 5, 6). Carrying their round shields in the left hand and their long spears that hang on their backs, these men grasp their short daggers in the right hand; even their helmets differentiate them from the Egyptian troops”
Spalinger p171
Figures 5 and 6 in the paper are meant to show this procession of Sherden soldiers, but the pictures he supplies are grainy and rather indistinct.
However, a clear photograph of part of the procession can be seen on this site,
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/anc...gypt/Corpus.htm
in the Sea Peoples section.
These Sherden are uniformly dressed in Egyptian kilt…
“Sherden wear the same kilts as their Egyptian companions in arms” – Spalinger p 172

are armed with dirks ,carry round shields and wear the simple bowl horned helmet with disc. Spalinger additionally remarks that..“Because the helmets of the Sherden are small, their faces are more exposed”. – Spalinger p172.
The uniformity in helmets of these figures is in complete contrast with the multitude of horned helmet designs worn by Sherden and others who wear the ‘normal’ sea people kilts

(See Andrea Salimberti Sea People site http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm, for a collection of these Sherden variations)
and further reinforces my suspicion that this particular bowl shaped helmet with disc was manufactured by the Egyptians for the Pharoah’s Sherden Guard.

Hi Todd and S Workman,
I have no doubt that the Egyptians did stereotype many of their enemies, especially those of long standing. But I don’t think they did so in this case simply because of the sheer variation in equipment being shown by them.
Had they settled on a stereotype for a particular race, they would have shown the same depiction over and over again. But with the Sea Peoples we are seeing a whole range of differences in equipment.
As previously mentioned, horned Sherden helmets are seen in a wide variety types from a number of temple depictions. The same is also true of the so called Pelset helmets. No two are exactly alike. They come in a variety of shapes and different band decorations. Andrea’s Sea Peoples site gives a sample of these differences.
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm,
The same seems true with the armour worn. Some have the ribbing pointed upwards, some downwards. So it seems that with the Sea Peoples at least, the Egyptians seem to be making a concerted effort to accurately portray what they are actually encountering.












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Todd Feinman
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Wow! Thanks for marshaling all of that information, George. I agree that it was just the perennial enemies / peoples the Egyptians were familiar with that had stereotyped depictions; unusual peoples or peoples engaged in particular conflicts could be shown with idiosyncratic details.
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George Nicolaides
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Hi Todd,
Indeed, whenever Egyptians encountered something new, they seem to have gone out of their way to depict it as accurately as they could.
The reliefs of Hatshepsut are a good example. The overweight queen and the exotic plants and animals from the land of Punt are faithfully recreated on her temple reliefs, something not usually done in conventional Egyptian art.
See http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/punt.htm for some of the depictions.
Similarly, as you have already mentioned about the enemies known as the ‘Nine Bows’, political enemies of long standing are typically depicted in a set stereotype form.
You can see both these principles at work in the Kadesh reliefs of Ramses II.
The soldiers and chariots of the Hittites, ‘the fallen ones of Hatti’, are all depicted in an identical manner, with long tunics, long hair and ‘dipylon’ style shields.
However, many of the allies the Hittites brought with them were new to the Egyptians, and they took great pains to show the unfamiliar appearances of these new peoples.
On Andrea Salimbeti’s Sea Peoples site,
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm,
there is a line drawing of a row of these allies standing in front of a depiction of the city of Kadesh. There is a multitude of different headgear among them indicating different peoples being represented. Many chariots too are different from the standard Hittite chariot depiction (two manned and some holding square shileds), indicating again that these belong to non Hittite peoples.
On this site you can see actual photos of this scene (they are the last two pictures on this page).
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/anc...gypt/Corpus.htm
(hmm, I wonder if anyone has tried to match the different depictions with the list of allies given for the Hittites??)
My point is that one should definitely take into consideration the artistic conventions the maker of the artefact you are looking at, worked under (something I tried to convey to Andrea without success).
That is why I think his reconstruction of the one horned Sherden helmet
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0...b5986b91dec.jpg
is incorrect.
And why his reconstruction of the one horned Anatolian helmet is also not right.
Anyway thanks to everyone for your views. It has been a very interesting discussion!!!!






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Todd Feinman
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I think it is supremely interesting that an Achaean tiara helmet with the remains of it's woven grass liner has been found. It is straight out of the Medinet Habu reliefs! Some of the Sea Peoples seem to have stepped right out of the Iliad --I know this is a controversial topic; we've had several threads on it here before..
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George Nicolaides
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I assume you are referring to the tiara helmets illustrated on Andrea's site in his late helmet section.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/helmets3.htm

Yes, they look remarkably like the 'Pelset' helmets seen on the Egyptian depictions (including identical band decoration).

Does this then imply that some of these 'Pelset' are actually Greeks??
Or that Pelset were in Greece during LHIII???

I can see how this would be controversial!!! ;)
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Todd Feinman
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George Nicolaides,Apr 22 2015
02:43 AM
I assume you are referring to the tiara helmets illustrated on Andrea's site in his late helmet section.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/helmets3.htm

Yes, they look remarkably like the 'Pelset' helmets seen on the Egyptian depictions (including identical band decoration).

Does this then imply that some of these 'Pelset' are actually Greeks??
Or that Pelset were in Greece during LHIII???

I can see how this would be controversial!!! ;)

Yes, Elwesh might = Achaeans, etc. also some Sea People's have big round shields, cuirasses, rapier-style swords, and amphiphalos horned helmets. In the Odyssey, Odysseus even mentions a failed raid on Egypt --where Pharaoh has mercy on him and basically settles him in Egypt for a while.
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George Nicolaides
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I've encountered the Eqwesh = Achaeans suggestion before. But since the depictions of the Eqwesh seem to be lost, or are at least unclear among the other Sea People temple depictions, we can't say for certain what they wore.

Until we can get more definite archaeological evidence, all we can do is speculate.

What we can say for certain is that helmets resembling those shown on some of the Sea Peoples have been found in Greece.

How they got there and who was wearing them is the big question.

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George Nicolaides
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Just an update on my ongoing ‘discussion’ with Andrea concerning one and two horned helmets.
I recently noticed something on one of the temple depictions he uses in his Sea Peoples section.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm

It concerns the picture to the right of the paragraph..

The role that the Sherden played with relation to Egypt varies from one text to another. They appear as a contingent of the Egyptian army in a wide array of sources, including the battle inscriptions of Ramesses II, the Anastasi Papyrus, and the Papyrus Harris of Ramesses III, and as an enemy of the Egyptians for the first time under Ramesses II, in the Tanis and Aswan Stelae, dated to year 2 of Ramesses II ( about 1278 BC). Ultimately, they seem to have been mercenaries with no fixed alliances, who would fight either with or against Egypt .

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples08.jpg
I presume this was the depiction he used to justify his reconstruction of a Sherden helmet with one horn

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0...b5986b91dec.jpg

Well, if you look closely at the central Sherden figure, (enlarging him makes it easier to see) you can make out the outline of a SECOND horn.

I’ve forwarded this information to Andrea.

I eagerly await his reply.







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Todd Feinman
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I see what you are describing! Have to take a look at the original relief if it still survives as copies in ink can be misleading. Ancient art obfuscates and misleads just as much as it clarifies and aids reconstructions. I have trouble believing in the single-horn helmet --if they were meant to evoke the power of bilaterally symmetrical horned animals. I can see the single-horned warrior becoming the butt of jokes in the ranks; it could become very Monty Pythonesque :-)
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Todd Feinman
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On a tangential note, there aren't any single-horned helmets mentioned by Homer either...
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George Nicolaides
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Well, I got Andrea's reply..here it is in full.

"As you know that the barelly visible spots on the image are traced of a possible second horns and not some relief deterioration or something else?!
Furthermore even if it was a second horn, for sure the warrior behind him has an helmet with only one horn and the one in front of him show an helmet with no horn at all.
In the Bronze age there were not moder armies with all the warrior wearing exactelly the same equipment (which is not even true also in the moder army) thus your assumption is wrong . It is fully resonable that Ancient time warrior had quipment, in this case helmet , with diffent features, shape and decorations even if belonging to the same group.
The relief show probable Sherden warriors equipped with helmets (bronze? leather?...we don't know) with one , maybe two, and no horns at all.
As I told you in the previous e mails when two horns are present two horns are also depicted by the artist even in the profile view. This simply because in case of two horns those are always visible also in profile view!

Thus my reconstruction of a possible sherden with a possible single horn helmet based on what we can see in the relief is fully resonable, acceptable and for my point of view correct.
But of course I was not there, and you were not there as well, so all our representations are based on what we can see or not see in the remains of the original font.
So if you like better to image all the sherdens, the Achaean, the Hittite ec... with the same kind of helmets with two horns because your personal belive is that they there were always wearing the same equipment,...this is your personal point of view which I considered wrong.

In my book I of course I will continue to represent the ancient warriors in the way (or at least in one of the possible way) which I considered more reasonable, based on my knowledge, research and confrontation with other experts and arcaheologist.
I did not expect that all the peoples agree with my representation as well as I disagree with some of the representation I seen in other books.
For what concern In the specific Egyptian relief for instance, a reconstruction of the Sherden warriors only with two horned helmet would not wrong, because for sure two horned helmet were largelly used. But based on what we can see probably, very likely (in that early period) also helmet with no horn or with single horn were used by the Sherded. And there are no logiacl reason nor archaeological interpretation (lateral views, artist convention ec...) which can be used to support the steretypized theory (for my point of view wrong) that the single horned helmet even if in some case represent were not existing!

I'm sorry but your arguments and partially analysis of only one warrior of the egyptian relief drawing can't support the theory that only two horned helmets are instead depicted.
But of course if you can provide closer images of the real reliefs where it is instead well visible that all the helmets were originally depicted with two horns, I will be very happy about this new discovery and vidence that also in the eraly period the Sherden only used two horned helmets!! The whole comunity of Bronze Age scholars and military arcaheologist will be happy as well.

So unless you have new evidences (not only the same arguments on which we have already fully discussed) I considered the argument closed!

Andrea"

Well, needless to say I don't agree with everything Andrea has said. I will try to get better pictures of these temple reliefs, if possible.
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Matthew Amt
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Goodness, he certainly got a little hot under the collar on that one, eh? Sounds like you insulted his mother or something! Kinda reinforces one's perception of his methodology though...

Thanks for passing that along!

Matthew
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George Nicolaides
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Yes, it's Andrea saying 'I've done the research, my conclusions are the right ones, your evidence is not conclusive and is coloured by your own preconceptions'.

When I pointed out in previous 'discussions' with him that he is guilty of the same 'crime' of preconceived views with his own reconstructions, he went off about how he is following exactly what the artefact is showing us (ie a straight reproduction of the ancient depiction.

Ancient artistic conventions or the artists own view of an item just don't count for him, no matter what evidence or arguments I supply.
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Dan Howard
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This kind of research can't be done by arts students. You need to know metallurgy, physics, military history, and hoplology. Many of his ideas are fundamentally flawed because he hasn't a clue about how real, functional armour actually works. His methodology is at least a century out of date - the illustrations in question aren't photos and can't be interpreted as such. Best to approach this subject from a scientific rather than an arts perspective and then draw in other disciplines when necessary.
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George Nicolaides
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Hi everyone,

Just a quick update, I found this site,

https://medium.com/the-bronze-age/intro-to-the-armour-of-the-sea-peoples-part-1-b35144d3f099?, entitled
PART ONE: THE HORNED-HELMETS OF THE SEA PEOPLES WARRIORS.

About two thirds of the way down the page is a blow up of the temple scene used by Andrea on his site, depicting Sherden storming a fortress in Amurru. You can clearly see the outline of a second horn on the helmet of the middle figure. The text of this scene says...

"In the first year of his campaign against the Hittites a contingent of Ramesses II’s foreign troops, probably Shardana, are storming the fortress Deper in Amurru. They wield long swords and wear tasselled kilts and the horned Shardana helmet without a disc. Note the round shields appear to have bossed decoration, and contrary to the usual Egyptian convention the helmets are shown in true profile. From The SEA PEOPLES — Warriors of the ancient Mediterranean, by Nancy K. Sanders."





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