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| One horn or two???? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 16 2015, 10:26 AM (1,961 Views) | |
| George Nicolaides | Apr 18 2015, 11:35 PM Post #21 |
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Yes, I believe Ramses Ii was the first to incorporate them into the royal bodyguard. Don't know how long they lasted in the Egyptian army. They are depicted fighting against other Sea Peopled during the reign of Ramses Iii. To distinguish these 'guard' Sherden from the attacking 'Sea Peoples' Sherden, the 'guard units have a disc and stem attached to the top of their helmets |
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| S. Workman | Apr 19 2015, 10:21 AM Post #22 |
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The disc on the helmets of the royal guard were removable, and could be thrown like chakram from India. In a pinch, they would snatch off the discs and throw them en masse, creating disorder in the enemy by their humming and whizzing, and very occasionally by hurting someone. |
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 19 2015, 10:46 AM Post #23 |
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Never heard of the removable, throwable discs before. Can you give me your reference for this? I was under the impression that the discs were emblems of the Egyptian sun god Ra. |
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| Matthew Amt | Apr 19 2015, 12:46 PM Post #24 |
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I think Mr. Workman forgot his [joke][/joke] tags again. Watching too much Xena, perhaps? Matthew |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 19 2015, 06:20 PM Post #25 |
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Haha! Nice :-) |
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| S. Workman | Apr 19 2015, 10:15 PM Post #26 |
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Either I'm kidding or I saw it in a book somewhere. I can't remember. |
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| Dan Howard | Apr 19 2015, 10:25 PM Post #27 |
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Yep, they were symbols of Ra. It is pretty silly to throw them because they were really used to focus Ra's power against smiteworthy enemies. ![]()
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| S. Workman | Apr 19 2015, 11:17 PM Post #28 |
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Now we're talking. If you are going to head off on a tangent, and come up with a kooky interpretation, head waaaaaay off! Von Daniken style, just go for it with the space aliens and the Thera eruption being an orbital nuke on a spaceport or something. Theres no sense in Munchhausening by halves. |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 19 2015, 11:58 PM Post #29 |
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Absolutely! |
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 20 2015, 01:40 AM Post #30 |
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Mmwwahahahaa!!! Classic Of course, that's how Ramses III defeated the Sea Peoples!! He lined up his 'Super Sherden' in front of his army and used their 'Ra Rays' to incinerate the enemy!! Why has no one worked this out before????? On a more serious note, while on the subject of the Sherden. Looking on Mr Salimbeti's site concerning the Sea Peoples, http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm I noticed what might be two types of Sherden being depicted by the Egyptians. You have your regular Sherden mercenaries with their multitude of different two horned helmet types and 'Sea Peoples' kilt, who get paid to fight, and then go home with their loot. Then there are the Sherden who wear a simple bowl two horned helmet and are dressed in Egyptian kilts. A picture on Mr Salimbeti's site of a Sherden head wearing this type of helmet from the temple of Luxor, shows it in bronze yellow, showing that it was made of metal. Another depiction of this type of Sherden. http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/anc...ypt/sherden.jpg Reading ‘Shrdn of the Sea’ The Sherden and their role in Egyptian Society…..Jeffrey P Emanuel, Harvard University. and “Srdn from the Sea – The Arrival, Integration and Acculturation of a Sea People’ – Jeffrey P Emanuel, Harvard University, it seems clear that many Sherden ended up owning land in Egypt, and eventual were fully assimilated into Egyptian culture. I wonder if the 'simple metal bowl horned helmet' and Egyptian clothed Sherden aren't these Sherden living in Egypt (possible military colonies??) - could these metal bowl helmets be manufactured by the Egyptians themselves to equip these Egyptianised Sherden? Those Sherden captured in battle and forced into military service or hired by money for their martial skills, retain their traditional helmets and Sea Peoples kilts. While there are some depictions which seem to show this bowl helmet on Sherden wearing the Sea People kilt, ALL the Egyptian clothed Sherden seem to have this one helmet type. Of course, all Sherden, whatever type, in Egyptian service wear the 'Ra Disc' on top of their helmets (the earliest example of 'Identification Friend or Foe Insignia????'). There is one example from Mr Salimbeti's site which seems to break this rule. It depicts a beared Sherden chief bound as a captive, with a 'Ra Disc' on his horned helmet. The helmet is of a 'traditional' Sherden type, indicating a proper mercenary Sherden. Jeffrey P Emanuel in Shrdn of the Sea’ The Sherden and their role in Egyptian Society…..gives an example of some of Sherden of 'his majesty' joining the Libyan and Sea Peoples attack on Egypt during the reign of Merneptah. Could this figure represent a similar 'turncoat' Sherden???? |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 20 2015, 03:13 AM Post #31 |
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Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptians didn't allow Sherden mercenaries to have their helmets made by Sherden smiths and then just attached the discs to them. These discs are also seen on many depictions of Egyptian chariot horse harnesses: http://www.ethanholman.com/history/egypt/d...riotmaking.html The Egyptians seemed to import helmets as tribute, and their native helmet tradition is quite different from the Sherden style. As far as turncoat disc-wearing Sherden --makes sense to me that some could switch sides later during the reign of Merneptah. The Egyptians had a useful tradition of bringing insisting upon foreign rulers giving them some of their male children to be raised as Egyptian royalty and then using them as hostages when necessary, or allowing them to rule as Egyptianized satraps or puppet rulers. |
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| Dan Howard | Apr 20 2015, 03:35 AM Post #32 |
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How do we know that both of these are Sherden? |
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 20 2015, 03:54 AM Post #33 |
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Hi Dan, Yes, it is an assumption on my part. The two horned helmet may not be an exclusive Sherden trait, since we don't know what some other Sea Peoples wore (eg: Eqwesh, Weshesh). So, the Sea People kilted two horned helmeted figures may not be exclusively Sherdan. I base the assumption on: a) The Sherden are depicted exclusively wearing the two horned helmet (along with the round shield) - which these figures are wearing. Other Sea Peoples pressed into Egyptian service (ie: Pelset) are equipped with different style helmets. Written evidence - Armarna letters, Temple inscriptions showing Sherden in Egyptian service. Jeffrey P Emanuel in his two papers records the Sherden being mentioned from Ramses II to Ramses IX - long enough to be assimilated into Egyptian culture.(I can send you the two papers in pdf's if you like) c) Apart from the Pelset, I am unaware of other Sea People with horned helmets being pressed into Egyptian service (if you know of any please tell me) |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 20 2015, 04:11 AM Post #34 |
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Hi George, I'd like to read them, and it looks like they are over at Academia.edu: https://harvard.academia.edu/JeffEmanuel Thank you for suggesting these! |
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 20 2015, 04:21 AM Post #35 |
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Hi Todd, Yes, that's where I got them from. If you have trouble downloading, I can send the pdfs via email. |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 20 2015, 04:26 AM Post #36 |
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Thanks George
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 20 2015, 05:04 AM Post #37 |
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Hi Todd, I found two additional papers by the same author, another on the Sherden and one titled Sea Peoples, Egypt, and the Aegean: The Transference of Maritime Technology in the Late Bronze–Early Iron Transition (LH III B–C) from another site. If you are interested I can send these as well. ps: the email form on this site doers not have an attachment button. How do I attach pdf's to member email sites???? |
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| Dan Howard | Apr 20 2015, 01:47 PM Post #38 |
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Do we really know whether all of these fighters are Sea People? |
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| Todd Feinman | Apr 20 2015, 02:27 PM Post #39 |
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Thanks, George --I'll take a look! |
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| George Nicolaides | Apr 20 2015, 02:34 PM Post #40 |
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Hi Dan, I guess it's always been assumed that those wearing the so-called 'sea peoples' kilt (bordered and with tassels hanging off the ends) together with the horned and various other helmets were sea peoples (Andrea's site gives a good summary of the helmet types). As for those figures in horned helmets and egyptian kilts I believe some of them are described as Sherden in temple inscriptions (I'll check up on that) |
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giorgiotsoukalos.jpg (10.16 KB)
Written evidence - Armarna letters, Temple inscriptions showing Sherden in Egyptian service. Jeffrey P Emanuel in his two papers records the Sherden being mentioned from Ramses II to Ramses IX - long enough to be assimilated into Egyptian culture.
1:00 AM Jul 11