Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Bronze Age Center. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
The Discs on Sumerian Warriors' Cloaks
Topic Started: Feb 19 2015, 07:47 PM (1,019 Views)
Brock H
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
I know we've had some discussion of this before, but I don't know if we've had a thread dedicated to it. Please bear with me if what I'm about to say has already been brought up.

I think the circles shown on artwork, such as the Standard of Ur, are metal discs, either copper or bronze. Their protective function would have been minimal, but could have fallen into the category of "better than nothing." I suppose it's conceivable an arrow striking one wouldn't penetrate into the flesh of the soldier. Of course, the next arrow probably hit an area without a disc and did penetrate. The same could also happen during melee combat--a disc could occasionally stop a spear thrust or an axe blow.

However, I think the main function was decorative with a hoped-for intimidation factor. If the discs were polished, and they probably were, then the sun shining off tens of thousands of the discs of an army drawn up in ranks would have been an impressive sight. And it could be hoped such a sight would give an enemy pause, if not intimidate him.

We know from history armies sometimes have very colorful uniforms. Some of that would be for identification purposes, but some was undoubtedly military bling. Why shouldn't soldiers 4,000+ years ago also want to have some bling? Besides morale boosting purposes for a soldier so decked out, it just might impress that girl a young soldier has his eye on.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
I think they were probably sheet bronze discs; they don't look like patterns on animal hides to me. In the phalanx here: http://www.crystalinks.com/SteleofVultures.jpg
--they have shallow bosses on their shields that could be larger versions of what was on their cloaks. if discs were even a bit more closely spaced than the sprinkling artists have shown, they could actually provide some protection from slashing weapons. If I had a choice of wearing a simple hide cloak or one with bronze discs sewn on --into combat, I'd definitely choose the one with the discs. And, if you can make metal sheet, why not experiment with how it could be sewn onto garments? In the book The Art of the First Cities that I actually have at home, there is a fragment of an inlay of a warrior with these discs, and each disc is shown as two concentric circles -another strike against a hide pattern; looks like the image is not online.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Matthew Amt
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
I *want* to believe that they are metal discs. I mean, I'm not prepared to say, "Yeah, those are copper discs," but really, what better explanation is there?

For the shields, yup, those are metal bosses. Six per shield, none of this "Well, that just REPRESENTS 6 ranks of men in the formation!" Call it like you see it.

Or they could be showing Daleks.

Matthew
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brock H
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Todd Feinman,Feb 19 2015
08:10 PM
if discs were even a bit more closely spaced than the sprinkling artists have shown, they could actually provide some protection from slashing weapons.

Since it would have cost virtually nothing for an artist to add more circles to a representation of a soldier's cloak, I don't think we'd better assume there might have been more discs than shown on his actual cloak. Plus, a single, larger piece of metal covering the chest area would be more practical as armor. So I think it's best to assume they were primarily decorative and only accidently provided some protection. OTOH, the bosses on the shield were protective in nature, as well as providing additional bling for a secondary function.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
So where are they? There were tons of bronze objects in the cemetary at Ur including bronze helmets, but not a single disc. Why is there a gap of almost a thousand years between this mythical disc armour and the first real evidence of metal body armour?

The stele of vultures is an attempt to represent six shields behind one another. Each shield has one boss. It is pretty obvious when you look at how the spears and hands and heads are portrayed.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Matthew Amt
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
So where are they? There were tons of bronze objects in the cemetary at Ur including bronze helmets, but not a single disc. Why is there a gap of almost a thousand years between this mythical disc armour and the first real evidence of metal body armour?


See, I KNEW you'd come up with a very good point!! I didn't realize the time gap was that big. And I knew there were cemetaries but I don't know enough of the details. Thanks! (In a grumbly way, ha!)

Brock, good points from you, too.

So, what the hell are those darn circles??? Gah...

Quote:
 
The stele of vultures is an attempt to represent six shields behind one another. Each shield has one boss. It is pretty obvious when you look at how the spears and hands and heads are portrayed.


Sorry, I'm still not agreeing on this one. To me, it's obviously one shield with 6 bosses! Might be other shields in the ranks farther back, might not. Mind you, I haven't looked at that stele closely in a while...

Matthew
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Ha! I also knew Dan would hit us with that. We've had this very conversation before, IIRC. "Deja Discs" if you will. Yeah! Where are all of the freakin' discs?!? (As Matt suggested) Musta been the Daleks; they traveled through time collecting them to adapt for bosses on their metallic exteriors.. Hmmm.. I detect a Dr. Who episode.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
FWIW cloaks can only work as armour if you stand still and hold it closed around you. They are useless when you are actually fighting - especialliy if you have both hands on a spear. Most of the time cloaks are a hinderance, not a help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Dan Howard,Feb 20 2015
08:51 PM
FWIW cloaks can only work as armour if you stand still and hold it closed around you. They are useless when you are actually fighting - especialliy if you have both hands on a spear. Most of the time cloaks are a hinderance, not a help.

A very good point! And reinforces Brocks idea about them just being part of a uniform with attached bling, not armour.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Matthew Amt,Feb 20 2015
01:23 PM
See, I KNEW you'd come up with a very good point!!  I didn't realize the time gap was that big.  And I knew there were cemetaries but I don't know enough of the details.  Thanks!  (In a grumbly way, ha!)

Dan's book - page 72. Page 46 lists the copper-alloy weapons found at Ur.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brock H
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
City II at Mari (roughly contemporary with Dynasty I at Ur) yielded a stele and several shell figures intended for a mosaic depicting warriors. They are wearing a strip of cloth over one shoulder and hanging down to about knee level, like a sash, with very small circles on them. Even if those circles represent metal discs 1mm or so thick they'd be useless as armor. So whatever they are is decorative.

With respect to Dan, they still could be metal. Not having found any is a major problem, but "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Since they could only have been decorative in nature, if they were metal discs they undoubtedly would have been thin, perhaps very thin, certainly thinner than the helmets found at Ur. After 4,000+ years of corrosion how much would have been left of something small and thin? Would any remaining scraps have been recognizable? When Ur was excavated, were any soil samples from the graves analyzed, which could have revealed the presence of copper corrosion products?

OTOH, those circles could be stamped on cloth with ink. About the only thing we can say for sure is that they must have been decorative and not functional, unless they served an identification purpose (different cities used different colored circles?).

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Right, there is a name for those sashes that I ran across yesterday (I think in Fabrice De Backer's work), but I cannot find it now.. Keep wanting to write "Tuttiwa" but I know that is wrong :(
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
IIRC dutiwa is an armoured skirt or kilt.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Dan Howard,Feb 22 2015
09:41 PM
IIRC dutiwa is an armoured skirt or kilt.

That's right. This was something ending with "itti". I'll have to dig around again for it. You mention the sashes in your book too, Dan.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Todd Feinman
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Okay they are called "tuttitu". They are mentioned in Fabrice's paper, found here: https://www.academia.edu/6817200/Apparition...e_Pre-Sargonids

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Near Eastern Studies · Next Topic »
Add Reply