Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Bronze Age Center. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Camel Cavalry before 900 BC; Issue with Gideon's fight in Judges
Topic Started: Jul 6 2012, 12:27 PM (581 Views)
Mashiach Stratton
Member
[ * ]
I'd like to get some opinions on how very ancient, camel based nomads would have fought. My friend Yitzchak and I have discussed this at length, but no conclusions have surfaced. I refer specificaly to the incident. We both think it highly unlikely that the camel based raiders, the Midianites in this instance, would have fought while mounted. This is due to the limited types of weapons they would have had. There is no record of cavalry around the time of this engagement, say 1250-1150 BC. Yes we know that horses and camels were used for transport, but would they even have mounted archers? I doubt it. If that was the case, Gideon's largely unarmored force would have stood little chance. Yes, it was a successful surprise attack, which was the only way for victory, but that is due to numbers and speed rather than archery. The Midianites I think would have used camels for transport, and rapid deployment as dismounted troops, as well as a speedy get a way. They probably only had spears and clubs, maybe a small number of axes and swords, and no armor at all. Any thoughts? Is it possible that nomadic raiders would have fought on horseback before 900 BC or so?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Yves Goris
Member
[ * ]
i believe i've read that the assyrians first used mounted archers on horseback (around the reign of tiglathpileser III).

I've read it in the assyrians from osprey publishing but can't find it anymore though.

before that, i don't know about any evidence. i've read about egyptian sculpture with men on horseback but they say they did not fight. it were scouts/messengers.

perhaps someone else knows more.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
At the time in question the only mounted archers were chariot-based.

There was an apparent transition from chariot archery to horse archery beginning in the 9th ccentury. Here were see Assyrians on teams of two horses - one shoots the bow while the other controls both horses.

It is shortly after this period that the true horse archer emerges.

No idea about camels.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sean Manning
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
You might have a look at a book called "The Camel and the Wheel" which looks at how camel handling, camel breeding, camel saddle, and camel pack technologies interacted with others. No part of the Bible is easy to use as a historical source, especially the 'prehistoric' Bronze Age parts.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Edwin Deady
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
No reason they could not have been javelin throwers.

Edwin
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Yves Goris
Member
[ * ]
i read 'ancient israel at war' from osprey publishing this week.

it appears israeli's had many stables for horses (for chariot warfare) and also 'normal cavalry' is mentioned sometimes...

btw, remember the story about the persians under cyrus the great using camels against the greeks of anatolia. the persians took cover behind their camels because the greek horses were unfamiliar with them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Yves Goris,Jul 15 2012
06:54 PM
it appears israeli's had many stables for horses (for chariot warfare) and also 'normal cavalry' is mentioned sometimes...

btw, remember the story about the persians under cyrus the great using camels against the greeks of anatolia.  the persians took cover behind their camels because the greek horses were unfamiliar with them.

AFAIK both of these date later than the period in question - after the introduction of cavalry.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dan Howard
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Edwin Deady,Jul 15 2012
05:30 PM
No reason they could not have been javelin throwers.

After the demise of the chariot archer you see chariot use split into divergent paths. One is the light skirmisher armed with javelins. The other is the heavy chariot used for shock tactics. Not sure when javelins start being used from horseback
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Yves Goris
Member
[ * ]
Yves Goris,Jul 15 2012
06:54 PM
i read 'ancient israel at war' from osprey publishing this week.

it appears israeli's had many stables for horses (for chariot warfare) and also 'normal cavalry' is mentioned sometimes...

btw, remember the story about the persians under cyrus the great using camels against the greeks of anatolia. the persians took cover behind their camels because the greek horses were unfamiliar with them.

yeah i know it's from a later period but my point is, if the greek horses were unfamiliar with the persian camels, according to me they were not used earlier either.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sean Manning
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Yves Goris,Jul 16 2012
04:37 AM
Yves Goris,Jul 15 2012
06:54 PM
btw, remember the story about the persians under cyrus the great using camels against the greeks of anatolia.  the persians took cover behind their camels because the greek horses were unfamiliar with them.

yeah i know it's from a later period but my point is, if the greek horses were unfamiliar with the persian camels, according to me they were not used earlier either.

It took a long time for Arabian camels to spread outside Arabia. Agesilaus was able to show off some captured (Bactrian or Arabian?) camels in the 390s when he returned to Greece. Probably the Arameans introduced them to Mesopotamia and the Achaemenids brought them from Mesopotamia to Anatolia.

So what draft and riding animals were used in Anatolia in the 500s doesn't tell us much about what draft animals were used in the Levant in the 1200s.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cody Beaton
Member
[ * ]
One question on the topic of the Israelites. I was trying to find anything about the TransJordan folks (Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites) and came across a reference in the 2nd book of Samuel chapter 8. Says when David beat them they gave a thousand chariotry, 700 horsemen and a host of infantry as vassals to call upon. Naturally what I know has me dismiss it as an anachronism - such a corps of cavalry in the 10th century is unknown from what I've heard and doubly so for some piddly little transjordan kingdom. But I am wondering if there's justification to the contrary I haven't considered.

A thought came to mind that's entirely theoretical with no foundation in facts. Could horses in the intermediate period of the late bronze/early iron age (Something like 1100-900 I guess) have seen cavalry exist as mounted infantry? Not just with the Assyrians but in a general context among others? It strikes me as a logical transitionary model for mounted warfare. The same thing happened more or less in Greece after all I believe. Chariotry of the Mycenaeans to horses used for transport to a growing use in combat flowering with the Thessalians and Alexander. Otherwise to my layperson's view you have chariots and then suddenly and spontaneously Assyria goes and creates a cavalry corps with no apparent stimuli.

That could help to explain away references to horsemen in the bible or some of the Hindu Epics/literature attributed to the Vedic period. They could just be later author's anachronism too, of course.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Edwin Deady
Member Avatar
Patron
[ *  *  * ]
Are you allowed to pick bits out as correct and others as writer's errors? Any doubt and its all in doubt.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cody Beaton
Member
[ * ]
Edwin Deady,Jul 18 2012
04:24 PM
Are you allowed to pick bits out as correct and others as writer's errors? Any doubt and its all in doubt.

I'm not sure if you are allowed to or not, but I think it's fair that we can be skeptical and analyze a period author's work - it shouldn't have to be an all or nothing affair. After all we frequently recognize the insane numbers proposed by ancient historians to be doubtful. And even today one can find that a modern author (about any subject) could have debatable sub-arguments within his or her main thesis.

I don't know when the bible was written but I am fairly sure it was at least a century or more after this 11th-10th century event. So the author may have looked to his own present surroundings for an idea of what troops the Transjordans would have supplied David. Speculation? Yeah, but it's hard to accept the presence of cavalrymen in a small transjordan state circa 1000 BC when we don't have much/any(?) evidence of cavalrymen elsewhere at that time.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Near Eastern Studies · Next Topic »
Add Reply