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What is he holding?
Topic Started: Feb 15 2011, 05:13 AM (980 Views)
Dan Howard
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This is part of the lower palette of the Stele of Vultures. What is the king holding? The textbooks reckon that it is a sickle-sword but that interpretation is based on the erroneous assumption that the khopesh is also a sickle-sword. It is even a weapon? Could it be a whip or reins? What is he holding in his other hand? Does anyone have a larger image?
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Matthew Amt
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Oh, I would guess reins or a whip. Doesn't seem to be held like a weapon, and doesn't seem to have any details besides looking like a stick or a rope. Bigger picture might help, though.

Matthew
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Yves Goris
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i'm thinking about a long spear held overhand...
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Yves Goris
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another detail
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Yves Goris
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I really think it to be a spear or javelin (you could ask yourself whether it to be possible to spear a person while riding a chariot even though the estimated speed of sumerian chariots was 20 km/hr.)
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Attachments: Stele_of_Vultures_detail_01b.jpg (166.86 KB)
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Top hand is a spear being held overhand. The lower is a rein, in my opinion. The shape around him is obviously identifiable as a chariot, and since he's riding it alone this seems to be the most reasonable conclusion... Here's a comparable image from the Standard of Ur.

Posted Image
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Dan Howard
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Believe it or not this is the kind of evidence that people have been using to support the invention of the "sickle-sword" in the Bronze Age.
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Might as well use it to support the theory that the Sumerians were really made out of stone.
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Sean Manning
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Just to clarify, how are you and your debating partners defining "sickle sword"? A curved blade with the concave part sharp and the convex blunt? It seems weird if textbooks are saying that khopeshes qualify under that definition, but they might be speaking loosely.
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Dan Howard
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As far as a lot of texts are concerned the khopesh is a sickle sword because they reckon it was sharpened on the inside, not the outside. Plenty of books reckon that the khopesh evolved from the farming sickle even though agricultural tools at the time used embedded microliths, not metal. There is a lot of rubbish written about this subject.
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Gregory J. Liebau
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I don't see where anyone could get the idea that khopesh were sharpened on the inside. Egyptian iconography was very rigidly structured and the representation of figures and tools were almost always going to be done in a particular fashion. In the case of the khopesh, these weapons are always shown in "smiting" scenes with the "outside" edge of the blade being held away from the wielder, as in the first few scenes below...

http://euler.slu.edu/~bart/egyptimage/ramses3rd.jpg

http://artofcounting.com/wp-content/upload...ting-Egypt1.jpg

http://artofcounting.com/wp-content/upload...-loop-Egypt.jpg

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/4D06...EF/VU004439.jpg

And other weapon types where the edge of the blade is clearly defined shows a similar pattern - holding the edge away from the wielder.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/el_condo...picture_069.jpg

http://mob605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133...pg?t=1250821483

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_c5zS4VfsGrw/Rg4rvtR1...Wk/DSCN1915.JPG

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1...1566-485179.jpg

http://artofcounting.com/wp-content/upload...iting-Egypt.jpg

http://image57.webshots.com/457/4/36/63/20...45cQxwHs_ph.jpg

This is the only depiction I found of a khopesh being held backwards, from Answa next to Rameses smiting a series of foes... The figure on the left holds his sword with the blade facing him. This can easily be accounted by realizing that the writing on the wall is going from right to left, and that the representation of the weapon, since it is not being held by the primary figure, would likely follow this direction.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/el_condo...picture_069.jpg
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Yves Goris
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There are examples of khopeshes found, didn't they provide a clue about this?

or does time has it's impact on the sharp edge of the sword as well?

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Sean Manning
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Dan Howard,Feb 17 2011
04:56 AM
As far as a lot of texts are concerned the khopesh is a sickle sword because they reckon it was sharpened on the inside, not the outside. Plenty of books reckon that the khopesh evolved from the farming sickle even though agricultural tools at the time used embedded microliths, not metal. There is a lot of rubbish written about this subject.

Wow, I just ran across that theory in Gabriel and Metz. It sounds like one of those theories that people repeat just because its written down, like "Greek hoplite kit weighed 70 or 80 pounds."

Yves, as far as I know, all surviving khopeshes are sharp on the convex side. But some academics don't bother looking at and measuring actual artifacts before making confident claims about them. I try to do better even if that means the answer to many things is "we don't know"!
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Todd Feinman
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Sean Manning,Feb 25 2011
07:37 PM
Dan Howard,Feb 17 2011
04:56 AM
As far as a lot of texts are concerned the khopesh is a sickle sword because they reckon it was sharpened on the inside, not the outside. Plenty of books reckon that the khopesh evolved from the farming sickle even though agricultural tools at the time used embedded microliths, not metal. There is a lot of rubbish written about this subject.

Wow, I just ran across that theory in Gabriel and Metz. It sounds like one of those theories that people repeat just because its written down, like "Greek hoplite kit weighed 70 or 80 pounds."

Yves, as far as I know, all surviving khopeshes are sharp on the convex side. But some academics don't bother looking at and measuring actual artifacts before making confident claims about them. I try to do better even if that means the answer to many things is "we don't know"!

Heh! One of the Dorling Kindersley books on ancient Egypt has a very nice rendering of an Egyptian soldier brandishing a khopesh --held backwards! :P

Todd
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Chris Huey
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Yes, it certainly seems like the charioteer in question has a javelin in his left hand. Notice the "quarrel" of javelins next to him. Though by no means would I cease the quest to find more information, it seems also highly logical that he would be brandishing such a weapon. Not sure about the left hand, though. We need a better image with less shadow. Though it does seem like a whip or perhaps reins, as opposed to a weapon. It seems to me there are some small, orb- like shapes near the end of the item in question, which would indicate some sort of lash perhaps. But yes, more images would be great!
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Chris Huey
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Thank you, high(er) resolution photography! Now, it certainly seems to be some kind of lash. Though it does appear that there are small ties keeping the individual thongs together. Any evidence of this in other places? Or am I just seeing things?
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