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Speculative Helmet of Overlapping Discs; Speculative (and specular!) helmet
Topic Started: Nov 20 2010, 07:13 PM (2,917 Views)
Todd Feinman
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Hi folks,
I have 3/4 of the discs made for the disc helmet and have sewn the leather shell; I need to sew the four layer linen backing and put everything together! I have a pattern which is making me really happy. The discs get progressively smaller as they get towards the top of the helmet and create a vertical curvilinear wave pattern --with the bosses, the effect will be pretty dazzling I think. The effect will look quite similar to the helmet covered with little dots on the chariot of Tuthmosis IV; I interpret that rendition as the bosses of many small scales or discs --discs are rendered in a similar manner elsewhere on the chariot, and some Myceneaen helmets were apparently covered in discs with no overlap. I'll post pictures eventually. The scale attachment holes are very similar to some Scythian helmets, the scales being discs instead of semicircles. I don't think folks at Hanigalbat or Thebes in ancient times would have batted an eye to see something like this in the arsenal or worn in battle.

Todd
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Todd Feinman
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helmet of Disks update:
Almost done! I've forgotten how involved sewing all of the pieces together and adding the edging was. I think this will be the last helmet I make this way; it's very time consuming and difficult. The good news is that it looks awesome! I've even added some carnelian gems as an accent. Can't wait to finish it and post some pics.

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Pics or it didn't happen!
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Todd Feinman
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Got some pics!:
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Todd Feinman
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Another pic:
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Attachments: IMG_3831.jpg (143.27 KB)
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Todd Feinman
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Another pic:
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Attachments: IMG_3836.jpg (136.62 KB)
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Todd Feinman
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Another pic:
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Attachments: IMG_3838.jpg (136.48 KB)
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Awesome! I love it. That's a very cool interpretation of a composite helmet. I know you've talked about this on a few different threads now, so could you sum up the inspiration and context of the project on this thread for viewers? Where and when do you think it would be likely that such a helmet may have been used, and by whom? What sort of depictions led you to this reconstruction, however speculative? Cheers!

-Gregory
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Todd Feinman
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Hi Gregory,
Thank you! I'm very happy with it too.
My speculative helmet was primarily based on depictions from the Chariot of Tuthmosis IV, though it's pretty clear that disks were used on some Mycenaean helmets as well, albeit apparently not overlapping. I see quite a bit of material on that chariot that could be interpreted as bezainted disk armour. I think it's posible that such helmets could have been used from the early 14th Century B.C. through to 500 B.C. or later, by the Mitannians, perhaps Egyptians, and even up to the Scythians. When I was creating Dan's more orthodox helmet, it constantly ocurred to me that a helmet of disks would even be more logical and obvious than rectilinear scales for a helmet; the attachment method is simpler and more obvious, and we know how the ancients loved their disks! I think this helmet would be referred to as a "big girpisu" or great helmet as described in the Nuzi material, as it has cheek flaps and a neck flap too.

Todd
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Dan Howard
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Looks good. I'd be wary of making the claim that Mycenaean discs did not overlap. It may simply be a way for the artist to show the difference between regular scale and disc scale.
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Todd Feinman
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Dan Howard,Mar 21 2011
09:13 PM
Looks good. I'd be wary of making the claim that Mycenaean discs did not overlap. It may simply be a way for the artist to show the difference between regular scale and disc scale.

That's true! And, I'd be happier if those Mycenaean disks did overlap :-)

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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What evidence do we have a Mycenaean disks on armor at all? I've seen dots on painted figures that are typically no more than... Oh, a couple of inches tall. That doesn't count for much of anything.
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Todd Feinman
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Gregory J. Liebau,Mar 21 2011
11:37 PM
What evidence do we have a Mycenaean disks on armor at all? I've seen dots on painted figures that are typically no more than... Oh, a couple of inches tall. That doesn't count for much of anything.

Hi Gregory,
On some of Andrea's pages there are clear depictions of helmets with Disks on them and what could be disk body armour too. For example: http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/helmets1.htm

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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I see these two good pieces of evidence there, I admit!

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/earlyhelmet17.jpg

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/earlyhelmet47.jpg

Any others rely on extreme interpretation. The actual disks are interesting and certainly do seem to point towards a helmet covered with disks - but they were found in conjunction with boar's tusks, suggesting a composite protective layer more likely arranged like the first image. Neither of these points to them being overlapping, but I think that if a helmet were *only* covered in these disks, it is reasonable to assume they would be overlapped. It makes sense from the point of protection.
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Todd Feinman
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Gregory J. Liebau,Mar 22 2011
12:14 AM
I see these two good pieces of evidence there, I admit!

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/earlyhelmet17.jpg

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/earlyhelmet47.jpg

Any others rely on extreme interpretation. The actual disks are interesting and certainly do seem to point towards a helmet covered with disks - but they were found in conjunction with boar's tusks, suggesting a composite protective layer more likely arranged like the first image. Neither of these points to them being overlapping, but I think that if a helmet were *only* covered in these disks, it is reasonable to assume they would be overlapped. It makes sense from the point of protection.

Hi Gregory,
It's true that none of them appear to overlap. Overlapping of any kind of armour plate, scale or other seems to be a Middle Eastern or ANE thing. Perhaps the Greeks were imitating more advanced examples.

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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Funny. A thread just turned up on Roman Army Talk asking if scale helmets really existed. Here's one of the marble examples used by the questioner.

http://img836.imageshack.us/i/4609019091abf07f1ab2o.jpg
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Todd Feinman
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Gregory J. Liebau,Mar 22 2011
12:20 AM
Funny. A thread just turned up on Roman Army Talk asking if scale helmets really existed. Here's one of the marble examples used by the questioner.

http://img836.imageshack.us/i/4609019091abf07f1ab2o.jpg

Never seen sculpture before --from a sarcophagus? That SCREAMS helmet of disks to me --I think that's what it is, just like mine!

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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You've seen the Manning Imperial helmet that's built this way, right?
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Todd Feinman
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Gregory J. Liebau,Mar 22 2011
12:33 AM
You've seen the Manning Imperial helmet that's built this way, right?

Hi Gregory,
Yes 've seen Craig's; don't believe there were any rivets involved in the originals but it is nice nonetheless.

Todd
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Gregory J. Liebau
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I think for the later classical and Roman examples rivets sound like a reasonable way to mount the disks. As early as the 7th century Greek helmets that have been found used rivets to secure liners around their circumference, and of course the Romans made vast use of them.

But I agree with you entirely when it comes to the Bronze Age. Cheers!

-Gregory
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