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| New Persian thinking? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 17 2010, 07:03 PM (774 Views) | |
| mjbroyles | Sep 17 2010, 07:03 PM Post #1 |
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Hello All, I was reading a discussion thread over on the RAT board about Persian weapons. I posted a question there and have not heard back from anyone there so I though I would try here. My question concerns Persian equipment. When I took the classes years ago, the Sagaris (the Persian axe) was specifically defined as being transverse (axe head is sideways) in construction making it a very odd looking item. It always seemed like a poor way to build one so the description always stayed with me. The Gerron (Gerra if you prefer Xenophon) was wicker. Both of these seem to have changed and I missed the change. Does anyone know what has happened? Please enlighten me. Cordially, Michael |
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| Sean Manning | Sep 24 2010, 12:36 AM Post #2 |
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Hi Michael, A sagaris is a Scythian word for axe. The Greeks liked to show generic eastern barbarians using axes with a broad curved blade and a backspike, but I've never seen a find of one (but I haven't looked very hard). Do you mean these, or the picks which Persians liked to use? And can you explain what you mean by transverse? Do you mean with the socket at a right angle to the handle? That does sound strange but I've never heard the idea before. A gerrhon (pl. gerrha) is by definition a woven shield. Probably made from reeds or sticks thrust through rawhide, although its hard to be certain. Can you be more specific about which type of shield you are talking about? Achaemenid troops used a lot of designs, including the large rectangular ones and the round pelte with a bite taken out of it. |
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| Sean Manning | Sep 24 2010, 03:49 AM Post #3 |
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Checking a Greek dictionary (its easier now that I know some ancient Greek!) γέρρον (gerron) means "something wicker" like a stall in a market or the body of a chariot or a shield. Herodotus and Xenophon use this word for Persian shields, and an ancient lexicon does the same and says that spara is the Persian name for these shields. But you can use similar words for a mat or a siege mantlet, so it still leaves exactly how they were made open. |
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| mjbroyles | Sep 24 2010, 04:07 PM Post #4 |
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Thanks for the input Sean, By transverse I mean if the handle is running up and down, the blade is running left to right. Like the transverse crest on the famous statue of of the Spartan, or Roman Centurian's transverse crests. You are refering to the axes I mean. Suddenly these axes are being shown with the blades running the same direction as the handle, and made of iron. The same people are also saying that the Gerron/Sparra are made of wood. Under this new idea the reed shields seem to be reserved for siege operations and lower quality troops. Is there some reason for these theories, or just "World's Deadliest Warrior" doing people's history again? Cordially, Michael |
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| Sean Manning | Sep 25 2010, 03:22 AM Post #5 |
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Hi Michael, I've never heard of a Persian axe like that. The ones I have seen, in museums or ancient art, are made the usual way for an axe or pick. This page has some pictures of the Greek vases showing these axes and an actual example of one. Gerron is probably the Greek word for the large, rectangular or oblong Persian shields. They were probably made from branches or reeds held together in some fashion, but until one turns up in an excavation we can't be sure about the details. The different small round or crescent shaped shields used by various nations were made from different materials. Several pieces of art seem to show this type of shield with a hide cover and wicker back, but others have smooth backs, and its hard to tell from just art! The smaller shields were called pelte in Greek and probably taka in Persian. |
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| mjbroyles | Sep 27 2010, 01:29 AM Post #6 |
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Sean, Thank you very much for the information. Either my memory or my education is faulty on the ax. But the shield is fine. Oh well, I managed to make an excellent iron (so I did not bother you guys with it here) Akinaka. So the Axe became less important anyway, and now I will just do without. Cordially, Michael |
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| Dan Howard | Sep 27 2010, 01:00 PM Post #7 |
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I've been going through some glossaries and in most languages the term for shield is the same as the word for the material it was made from. In Greek there are two examples gerron means wicker object sakkos means something made of hair Egyptian shields are called ikm which can also mean skin or hide. Hittite shields are called kurša which can also mean skin or hide Akkadian shields are called aritu but I'm not yet sure where this term is derived from. |
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| Sean Manning | Sep 27 2010, 02:55 PM Post #8 |
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Congratulations on the knifemaking Michael! And thanks for the information Dan. Taka may have something to do with leather but I'm not sure ... that article is a few hundred km away. |
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