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| Persian scale armour/armor | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 4 2007, 01:55 AM (12,149 Views) | |
| Sean Manning | Jun 21 2008, 06:32 AM Post #61 |
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48? sets of scales done! Now I need to oil the last eight or nine batches. Todd, what diameter is that 12-ply waxed linen thread you recommended? My holes are 3/32" = 0.1" across, and I'll do at least a double lacing through each hole. |
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| Todd Feinman | Jun 21 2008, 03:20 PM Post #62 |
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Hi Sean, Well, if you used the 12-ply cord, you would only be able to lace through the scales once with it --it would be too thick to double lace with. This however would be just fine for you, as your scales are smaller too. I don't think double lacing would help with the hole and overlap configuration you are using --the cord's weak spot will be at the overlap where there could be abrasion, and in the long run it simply will come down to how many fibers you have stretched over the area. Matt made knots behind each of his scales, and that might be something to consider. One concern is that you use a needle that will fit through the holes, and that you can fit the cord through . Pliers can help when you get into a bind with the sewing, but take care not to fray the cord. Actually, what would be perfect for this type of scale would be the metal "staples", seen in some Roman scale and lamellar, but I bet none was discovered with the find?Todd |
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| Sean Manning | Jun 21 2008, 06:22 PM Post #63 |
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No, the Persepolis and Thebes scales were just found loose or rusted together. I think the stapled technique is distinctively Roman. Knotting after every scale, or every few scales, would be a good idea, I think. It would avoid having whole rows start to come undone if one scale falls off or one lace breaks. There were a number of rectangular scales with holes both at the top and the bottom. I'm thinking of using these for the nape-protector, where stiffness would be a good thing, even though it would reduce the overlap there. I might also use (bent) scales like this to bridge the top of the shoulders, where the scales on the front meet the scales on the back back-to-back. Matthew's 'epaulettes' are cool too, though! I'm also wondering if the scales with an extra hole or two were from the sides and the bottom row, where they might have been laced into a leather edging. That doesn't seem to have been common in armours from other cultures, though. What do you think? |
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| Todd Feinman | Jun 21 2008, 08:12 PM Post #64 |
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Hi Sean, I'll bet the square scales were used at the bottom edge of the armour... the scales with extra holes near the sides. Also, interestingly there was a clump of corroded bronze "staples" found near the scale armour scraps at Nuzi --it was supposed that they were used for repair; somehow I'm not so sure. Go Sean!! Todd |
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| Todd Feinman | Jun 22 2008, 04:22 PM Post #65 |
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Hi Sean, I was looking at the lacing pattern you are going to use, and think that the perhaps a more effective lacing pattern would be just to lace the scales horizontally through the two holes in the middle of each, putting a knot behind each. This would minimize abrasion and make for more stable rows. I have often thought that a scale lacing pattern similar to that would be very effective, as the lacing is safely in the upper middle of each scale, protected by the row above it, while gaps between scales are effectively covered too. Todd |
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| Sean Manning | Jun 22 2008, 08:23 PM Post #66 |
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Hi Todd, Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure I understand what you mean .... are you suggesting lacing each scale individually, passing the needle from the back, through the hole, across the top, through the other hole, through the back, and knotting it behind each hole? That would stop it from unravelling if one scale came loose ... |
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| Todd Feinman | Jun 22 2008, 08:40 PM Post #67 |
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Hi Sean, The only cord that would be visible from the front on an exposed row would be the lace running between the two holes on each scale --the edges would just happen to overlap because of placement (kind of like how it would appear from the backing side of the picture you posted). Really it's the simplest lacing pattern possible.--It also has the added benefit of having the lacing in the front somewhat protected from the scale row edges above it by the spaces created by the horizontally overlapping scales. As for the knots, I don't see how you could do it easily, as it would require two 12-ply cords going through one hole I think no matter how you would do it. So, one continuous unknotted linen cord for each row would still be very effective, and you'd have the fewest points of potential abrasion <edit> though on second thought, it might be better to get something like 8-ply and then do a double stitch through each scale or use two cords for each row, and stitch it twice, once in reverse . Todd |
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| Sean Manning | Jun 25 2008, 06:09 AM Post #68 |
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Were you suggesting the reverse of my diagram, so that the cord passes up from the back, across the middle of the face of the scale, through, across the back to the next scale, through, across the middle of the face of the next scale, through, across the back to another scale, back, ...? The double stitch, with one lace going under-over-under and one lace going over-under-over, could work as well, and it would probably be strong. Humh ... I suppose that all of these would work with heavy thread. Maybe I'm overthinking here. I'll probably buy a few different sizes, experiment a bit, and go for it. |
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| Todd Feinman | Jun 26 2008, 04:59 AM Post #69 |
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Hi Sean, Yes, I think that's it. I'm sure you'll come up with something good! Todd |
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| Sean Manning | Jun 28 2008, 03:51 AM Post #70 |
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52 strips done; 48 have been oiled. One of the complete strips has an extra hole in each scale (half of them are on the left side and half are on the right), for use along the side slit. I'm going to investigate leather prices and leatherworking tools tomorrow, along with buying less important things like clothes. |
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| Sean Manning | Jul 5 2008, 08:07 PM Post #71 |
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55 strips done; about three still need oiling. I have two strips with four holes (for the bottom and nape-protector) and one strip with three holes (for the sides of the side slit). The four-holed scales took longer than you might think to make. Todd, that US supplier for waxed linen thread wants over $30.00 for shipping one spool to Canada; I'm investigating other suppliers. I could probably import it from Ireland for less than that. Has the US postal system just raised its rates for foreigners? |
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| Matthew Amt | Jul 5 2008, 11:28 PM Post #72 |
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I got a spool of linen thread from Demco.com, a library supply place--book repair thread. Another source is Brodart. Should be available in a couple different weights. Get a cake of beeswax at a fabric store and wax the thread yourself as you go along. If I need it heavier I just use a double thickness. Oughta be cheaper that way. Go go go! Matthew |
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| Todd Feinman | Jul 6 2008, 02:40 AM Post #73 |
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Matt's right. You can also find linen cord on ebay, but whatever you get, you want enough of a supply to finish the entire corselet with it. I know you can just double up the cord, and heck, they may have done that in ancient times too. For color, if you can find the natural stuff that seems best, but blue and red are possibilities too. Todd |
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| Sean Manning | Jul 6 2008, 04:52 AM Post #74 |
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Thanks, guys. I've found a Canadian store which carries the stuff in 4 ply, and I can always double it up or braid three strands together. I was just a bit surprised, since I had expected to buy it from Royalwood. No scales today, but I did chisel down one end of a stick to fit my bronze axehead. I'll keep looking for more authentic woods, but I wanted to practice on something cheaper. |
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| Sean Manning | Jul 14 2008, 04:39 AM Post #75 |
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61 strips done! Another three have had the holes punched, but need to be cut up, filed, and oiled. I found a nearby supplier of 4-ply Crawford Threads waxed linen thread, and two spools arrived a few days ago. I may double or tripple it up ... I should probably experiment a bit with loose scales. I'm thinking of ordering in some hemp canvas for the backing ... two layers of 14 oz (per square yard) cloth sounds about right. I also made a papyrothorax from bristol board to test neckguard design and the size of the arm and neck holes. I'll have photos one of these days ... |
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| Luciën Olinga | Jul 14 2008, 04:01 PM Post #76 |
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1/12 scale statue man
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pictures.. PICTURES!!! ![]() Greetings, Luciën.. |
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| Sean Manning | Jul 28 2008, 02:21 AM Post #77 |
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Done, Lucien! I'm at about 67 strips done or mostly done, but I'll have to count. And I have photos!![]() This shows the stages of scale production from left to right. They are: 1) Raw strip 48" (120 cm) x 0.75" (2 cm) of cold-rolled mild steel 2) Cut strip into quarters 3) Polish strips with 400-grit sandpaper 4) Mark strips for cutting and punching 5) Punch holes with Whitney punch (the ancients seem to have made them by repeatedly hammering a spike against opposite sides of the same spot!) 6) Cut strips into 1.5" (4 cm) x 0.75" (2 cm) squares 7) Cut off corners of squares to produce scales Not visible are the remaining steps: 8) File top corners to prevent them sticking into me or cutting the backing (I gave up filing the other corners about 40 48" strips ago) 9) Oil scales with a spray of WD-40, let it soak in, and clean them with a rag 10) Stitch scales to backing (the backing should arrive in a week or two) Most of the tools are there except the Whitney punch and my other gloves. I'll attach a photo or two of the 'papyrothorax' when I have a decent-looking photo. |
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| Sean Manning | Aug 5 2008, 05:36 AM Post #78 |
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Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, we have scales! 72 batches of 32 to be precise; three of which need to be oiled. That's all I'm doing unless I run out towards the end. That's 2304 scales in all! The hemp backing also arrived, so I'll start experimenting with stitching patterns and make the backing. As promoised, here is a photo of the 'papyrothorax.' The arm holes need to be slightly taller, and I was holding one side closed rather than improvise some sort of strap. I may add or subtract 5cm/2" or so from the length. Back view:
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| Sean Manning | Aug 5 2008, 05:54 AM Post #79 |
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Front:![]() The hand at my neck is holding the neckpiece in place! Presently the bottom is a few inches below the points of my hipbones. I might add another 5 cm or so, or leave it as is. |
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| Matthew Amt | Aug 5 2008, 12:20 PM Post #80 |
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Hey, progress! You might want to cut the armholes a little larger at the front, too, unless the scale rows compress easily horizontally. It looks like you won't be able to extend your arms forward very much. But that's what patterns are all about, eh? Keep at it! Matthew |
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. Pliers can help when you get into a bind with the sewing, but take care not to fray the cord. Actually, what would be perfect for this type of scale would be the metal "staples", seen in some Roman scale and lamellar, but I bet none was discovered with the find?


1:01 AM Jul 11